79 replies to this topic

[Mikallo]

Has anyone suggested having one base in the middle?

It can be fought on, fought around, assaulted or defended and it's in the middle so you don't have to watch the lone assault try to walk across the map for 3 mins at 50kph. Lights could run out for quick cap points, play squirrel and lead people away, or just run around all the LRM boats, because they know which way they'd be pointing. Frankly, it's probably more 'realistic' that mechs would be fighting over something rather than wandering away from what they're supposed to be protecting to duke it out.

My apologies if someone else already posted this. I read the first page-ish and then it was TL,DR.

[Mercules]

Mikallo, on 20 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Has anyone suggested having one base in the middle?

This whole thread, with that suggestion, has come up about every fourth day since Closed Beta. It isn't a perfect solution because then you have what is basically Team Death Match that encourages everyone to run to the center. Part of the reason people get capped is because they already just run to the center of the map and ignore alternate approaches and then dumbfoundedly stand there going, "How are we being capped?"

The cap is NOT just to prevent a situation where there is one mech left shut down in a little alcove hiding spot where you can only see it from a difficult area or a Spider that jumps to the tip top of someplace you can't shoot it off of. The cap also encourages not blobbing up as doing so makes it more difficult to spot enemy forces flanking you and moving toward your base. In other words it encourages being informed and scouting and not just wandering around until you encounter the enemy and then firing at them.

[Glythe]

Yes there needs to be a measure to end the game if 1 mech is just going to run away. But know that base cap rushing is still the fastest xp gain/hour. So that is why people still do it.

Add a module that gives base weapons... weapons function until mech with module on it dies. Problem solved.

[Taemien]

Qraz, on 19 March 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

Saying "it's player problem" is same with everything kinda then? I don't have problem with ECM, lrm, ppc:s, raven 3L:s.... it's all about "player problem" so game if perfect you say?

You know, when I think about it, yes, just about all my issues with MWO can be attributed to players. Either mistakes I myself have made or mistakes my team has made.

If I get my missiles negated by ECM, I kill the light mech with my lasers (I'm not dumb enough to get close to a DDC with my missile mech).

If I'm getting capped, I counter cap (I run with a capture module for this reason, and I will warn the enemy that they will get capped very quickly if they don't come fight, no one has yet had the balls to answer such a challenge, so I grab the win from them). Or if I'm close enough I engage the cappers.

If LRMs are fired at me, I break locks (I'm very good at this).

If Streaks are being used on me, I just kill the mech. Least they aren't SRM6s.

If its a gimp build.. or what people call a boat or cheese mech, I kill it by its weakness (long range for spat cats, dodging and flanking for gausspults, getting in close for PPC/LRM boats).

Yeah.. I think its safe to say I can pretty much counter everything the vocal minority on these forums has issues with. I don't think I'm the best in this game, in fact I know I'm probably not. But the difference between my playstyle and some one else who is going to debate me somehow, is that I take personal responsibility for my own play.

I don't blame tonnage imbalance for a loss, I don't blame equipment for a loss (I have yet to lose a game where ECM was the sole reason). And I don't blame a premade for a loss either.

Once you stop giving excuses for a loss, you learn to adapt and then you start winning and in the end, enjoy the game.

As for the original topic. There is an easy fix to capping. One that doesn't require a Dev. Get your team to do one of two things:

1. Stay at the base. You have 8 people that will utterly annihilate any fast move that goes in to cap a base.

2. Find a hiding spot 200-500m from the base. Sit there until the cap alert happens and ambush everything between you and the base.

Both suggestions give you a ton of fighting, and even some room to use long and short range weapons if you do it right. And they work on all maps on Assault Mode.

If you want your fight, that is how you do it. If you can't get your team to do this, then that is definitely a player issue. Its the most effective way to earn Cbills and EXP, so if they aren't doing it, not amount of dev intervention will get them to.

[Mystere]

Elessar, on 19 March 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

There was another good suggestion osome while ago...
make base capping speed dependant on the total number of kills (i.e. added kills of Team A + ...
make capping with 0 kills so slow that an Atlas could walk from one edge of the battlefield to the other and still be able to drive off the capper
and increase the speed with every mech killed, so that maybe at 5-8 kills the capping speed is as fast as it is with the current state of the game


This way speed capping is strongly discouraged and capping will rather take place to the middle or end of the battle (if at all)

The proposal makes capping rules more complicated than they need to be and is heavily biased against the team with more deaths. It's doing much more that just "discouraging" speed capping.

Better yet, just have TDM (although I really think this is just for coattail hangers ).

Edited by Mystere, 20 March 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Qraz]

Mercules, on 20 March 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Or... you could intelligently advance, locate the enemy, and destroy them before they touch your base... but that requires learning to play and you stated you were against that.

You can always show us video, where only you, maybe with one friend (even then you have voiceip which real pugs dont!) will kill team of 8 mechs running to your base, when rest of team is in totally other side of map. Like that other fellow told, it's even more problemous in bigger maps which they are releasing. And in that video, show me how you defend base without standing in it. It takes 1-2 lights to run in circles around base circle and everything is done in couple minutes, while your team mates are still miles away. Until that, I will ignore these l2p crap messages.

Making bases destroyable would be good, or make it so that timer stops counting when both teams have mechs inside enemy base circles.

[Taemien]

Qraz, on 20 March 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

You can always show us video, where only you, maybe with one friend (even then you have voiceip which real pugs dont!) will kill team of 8 mechs running to your base, when rest of team is in totally other side of map. Like that other fellow told, it's even more problemous in bigger maps which they are releasing. And in that video, show me how you defend base without standing in it. It takes 1-2 lights to run in circles around base circle and everything is done in couple minutes, while your team mates are still miles away. Until that, I will ignore these l2p crap messages.

Making bases destroyable would be good, or make it so that timer stops counting when both teams have mechs inside enemy base circles.

You want a game mode where 1-2 mechs can take on a team of 8?

I don't even think YOU know what you want. If they put in TDM, you would complain that a team of 8 just ran up on you and slaughtered your team. I mean the issue I see, by your accounts is you have 8 players rushing your base. Well imagine if they were rushing you instead of the base, you wouldn't stand a chance.

Your team wouldn't help you, you already said you run off on your own maybe with one other. At least by your example of what you want in a video, 1-2 mechs taking on a team.

Either you don't play the game tactically well, or you cannot phrase what you mean on the forums.

Which one is it?

Also you failed to respond to my post, specifically this:

Quote

As for the original topic. There is an easy fix to capping. One that doesn't require a Dev. Get your team to do one of two things:

1. Stay at the base. You have 8 people that will utterly annihilate any fast move that goes in to cap a base.

2. Find a hiding spot 200-500m from the base. Sit there until the cap alert happens and ambush everything between you and the base.

Both suggestions give you a ton of fighting, and even some room to use long and short range weapons if you do it right. And they work on all maps on Assault Mode.

If you want your fight, that is how you do it. If you can't get your team to do this, then that is definitely a player issue. Its the most effective way to earn Cbills and EXP, so if they aren't doing it, not amount of dev intervention will get them to.

Is fighting something you don't want? But you also don't want capping.

What do you want? Perhaps a PVE game?

[Mystere]

Qraz, on 20 March 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

You can always show us video, where only you, maybe with one friend (even then you have voiceip which real pugs dont!) will kill team of 8 mechs running to your base, when rest of team is in totally other side of map. Like that other fellow told, it's even more problemous in bigger maps which they are releasing. And in that video, show me how you defend base without standing in it. It takes 1-2 lights to run in circles around base circle and everything is done in couple minutes, while your team mates are still miles away. Until that, I will ignore these l2p crap messages.

Making bases destroyable would be good, or make it so that timer stops counting when both teams have mechs inside enemy base circles.

Defending Base <> Leaving 1 or 2 People Behind While Rest Move On

[Qraz]

Reason why I asked video is that I'm sure I will never receive one. How many times in pug matches you actually see people defending? I'm happy with my own scores, but often HAVE to follow team and have hard time to keep up with their speed if playing slow mech. Several times even ambushed and picked as last in line.

People in pug rush and don't listen ideas much. If you can figure out nice system which would make it actually profitable to stay and defend, then sure I would welcome such addition.

And yes, PVE would be nice addition to game and make it more interesting. Maybe even turrets and tanks, which actually IS what assault should be all about. One team defending and other attacking.

[Mercules]

Qraz, on 20 March 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

You can always show us video, where only you, maybe with one friend (even then you have voiceip which real pugs dont!) will kill team of 8 mechs running to your base, when rest of team is in totally other side of map. Like that other fellow told, it's even more problemous in bigger maps which they are releasing. And in that video, show me how you defend base without standing in it. It takes 1-2 lights to run in circles around base circle and everything is done in couple minutes, while your team mates are still miles away. Until that, I will ignore these l2p crap messages.

Making bases destroyable would be good, or make it so that timer stops counting when both teams have mechs inside enemy base circles.

Ehem.... the times when 8 mechs purposefully rush a base in a coordinated effort are rare. I think I have seen it twice since the game hit open beta. More than a thousand games, easily, and I've seen it twice. Less than a percent of my games.

What I do occasionally see is a good deal of posts from people who state their whole team went upper city in River City while the enemy must have gone lower city and they both ended up on each other's bases. HOW? I mean if you run 100m in either direction you can see the other side of the map and see people moving around.


What a base cap typically is, is 2-3 mechs... at most 4, who went a slightly different route and missed the 8 man blob. How do I know this? I've been part of those 2-4 mechs or even been alone. Not seen anyone on the route I took, found out where they were and decided to pull a few people off the line by stepping in the cap. Then waited.... and waited... and waited.... and won. Huh, no one came back?

A friend of mine and I decided while he was leveling up a few Commandos to specifically use Base Capping as a tactic. We would run to the opponent's base, hit it about the time they should be hitting our main force. I would let the PUG know what is happening and then we would step in and start the cap.

About half the time no one came back and we stood there. If our team was ahead in kills we would step off and let them finish the kills out. If we were almost all dead we would finish the cap. If it was close we would sometimes leave it all but capped and go join the fun.

If mechs broke off we would get the base as low as possible. Then we would either kill what returned, OR if it was too much we would race off, circle around, help our team finish off the ones that didn't run, and then focus on the leftover mechs that now couldn't leave their base area or risk us simply capping them.

Do you know what happened the times we didn't go cap their base? Someone looked around and moved to stop us from reaching their base. Seriously! We ran into scouts or a wide flung fire support who called in help even if we killed them. The other team then moved to cut off our route.

The times we were successful the other team took the most predictable route, engaged the rest of our team without scouting or even sometimes looking anywhere except straight ahead, and then only returned to the base when it seemed desperate.

[Stoicblitzer]

in competition, capping is pretty strategic. i vote no. need a tdm.

[Mercules]

Qraz, on 20 March 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Reason why I asked video is that I'm sure I will never receive one.

You probably won't. Here is why:

"Capture Your Finest Gaming Moments With Fraps For Only $37!"

The 30 seconds of video you can capture on the free version probably won't convince you and I would have to time it just right.... So.... You can send me the check for $37 and I will happily start recording all my sessions for you.

[Jman5]

First off, if you wanted to accurately gauge the forum community's opinion, you never put your opinion in the title. It will horribly skew your poll results every time.

Onto your point about base capping, I think there is often a misconception from the losing team of a base-race that the enemy just rushed your base and hoped for the best. When I cap, I do it because we have scouted your team's position and we're in a better position to cap your base than you are to cap ours. Or the fight has gone terribly wrong and capping is the only possible way to win.

A lot of players and teams even at the highest level of play will get themselves out of position and lose to a decisive base rush. It's not that the winning team came to the game with the intention to cap, they just recognized the enemy's mistake and capitalized on it.

[Hedonism Robot]

Yes, lets not have base capping anymore and make all the maps a single funneled tubes where we can all bring big stompy assault mechs and brawl...... Actually that sounds kinda fun!

[Metallis]

Meaning no disrespect to my fellow mech pilots, but why don't people use strategy? It's not your opponents fault if you don't make a plan to leave a few mechs behind to defend against cappers. Most of the time, its 1-3 lights that make the ninja rush to cap. Leave a 3 mechs defense force (Light with ecm for counter, Assault and heavy)


I pilot light mechs only, and always, not 2 minutes are we from base, when I hear base is being attacked. Being a light mech its my job to rush back to save the base. Maybe I have help or maybe not. But more times than not I get there and run into 3 light mechs. I do what I can but 3-1 odds are not fun. But I do my job.

There is no need to change or get rid of capping. Capping is one of the two ways a team can win. You pilots need to plan what you all know is coming and stop being lazy. This is a team game that uses strategy. Please stop making excuses

Edited by Metallis, 20 March 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[Odins Fist]

12 v 12 Teams would allow you to leave a couple of people somewhere close to protect base, or have enough lights to get back to base. "UNLESS" you had a 12 man flock of terribad scrubby lights capping you..

(Facepalm): There is no solution...

Edited by Odins Fist, 20 March 2013 - 12:53 PM.

[Ialti]

Edited for quotes:

Captain Midnight, on 19 March 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

This thread is hard to be constructive in. I want capping to be less effective, but I also don't want to reward noobs for having no skills. Therefore I just don't know what to think about your opinion. I feel like the byline of your post is "I'm in a splatapult A1, and they keep capping instead of standing still and dying like they should"

Plus

Captain Midnight, on 19 March 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

Enemy raven runs and hides in a corner, that's why capping exists.




See, base swapping only really happens if one team picked a pure brawler deck and they charged straight forward with so much more weight than their opponent that they couldn't get back to base and the ONLY HOPE their opponent had was to outmaneuver at capture. I feel like you, and the OP, run all brawlers with tiny engines and expect your opponent to line up like it's an civil war re-enactment and stand still while you murder them, otherwise you cry sour grapes.

If you had as many lights as they did, and it's not alpine, you could have gone back and fought. Except you only had atlases and splatapults to the tune of 600 tons so you ran headlong across the map and when they wisely danced around you and took your cap you lost.

I guess OP's point appeals more to people like me, who PUG most of the time. I don't know what my team will be composed of, I don't get a 'deck,' and I haven't any guarantee that the others on my team are reliable--in fact, if somebody says "lights back to base" I find that the odds are about 50/50 that anybody'll listen. I've had quite a few of those experiences, where the other team has at least a four-man, and aims to cap, and whether we're close or far nobody or maybe one person goes back to stop the cap.

I can't really complain, it's a risk I run in PUGging, but if we're being constructive here I'd say it's probably a good idea to eliminate at least some of the lamer pacifist capwins in beta.

But please don't take this the wrong way. Capping gives us strategy and an out when we can't chase down that pesky ECM light who hides in some deserted corner. I, and OP, don't want it gone. We just want to not have no-fight wins/losses.

tl;dr :No get rid of cap. Just make betterer.

Edited by Ialti, 20 March 2013 - 01:10 PM.

[Oppresor]

Qraz, on 19 March 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

Please, do something about this. I hate to spend more time looking loading screen and mech startup than I get to spend in fight.

Make first 5 minutes non-cap time! At that point losing team can change tactics and try to win by capping.

Or something similiar... maybe make timer slower too, as in most maps there's no enough time to run back in bases with slower mechs if someone is capping it.

I sort of agree with you on this; I think base swapping detracts from the overall idea of the scenario, at least if it is going to happen in the first five minutes of the mission. This happened in a mission that I was in two weeks ago; our lance had just started to move out when three enemy units literally ran past us straight towards our base. We had left one Awesome to guard the base, he did his best but the outcome was inevitable.

McKracken, on 19 March 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

I know that my opinion is very unpopular, but I would remove base capping completly from this game. Capping a base in a few seconds without a really Mech-Based Conflict is not what I understand under Mech-Based War

I understand your frustration, missions are far too short for me as well. Maybe the answer is to have a five to ten minute period where the scenario wont allow anyone to capture the base; this would make the Mech action more important, there would also be more focus on destroying the other team to win.

For those that see this as an opportunity to include a bit of base development; how about having an active proximity mine field around the base that needs to be deactivated before the base can be taken. Maybe some sort of generator that needs to be knocked out to cut the power to the minefield.

[Volume]

The "problem" is that many players don't want to play base defense or capture modes.

It's a moot point honestly since TDM is coming soon.

From a design standpoint, a restriction of capture not applying until 3 minutes pass or 4 total 'mechs are destroyed, whichever comes first doesn't seem like an issue.

What I've been maintaining since day 1 was the following: Allow regeneration of the base when no enemies are in the square (think it "resets" so to speak), or damaging an enemy 'mech attempting to capture will reset or slow the capture (a la World of Tanks).

As a matter of fact, the whole game type is just copy pasted from WoT without the aspect of "doing damage to enemies capturing the base will reset the capture" and capture resetting if enemies move out of the marked area.

It's pretty stupid, but their only band-aid fix so far was to make it take longer to capture the base. But then again, we have a "cap base faster" module to make up for that.

Edited by Volume, 21 March 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[ThePhoenix007]

Short term, 5 minutes works, long term, I'd suggest something where 2 points have to be destroyed before the base could be capped. (like shield generators, kill them and the shield drops, allowing for capture). The points have a lot of hit points which would prevent light mechs from capping extremely easy.