62 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

as you see everything depends on the cluster size.
3 hits of a gaussrifle have to be a grave danger while the same mech should take 18 hits of a medium laser without much consequences even if it is the doubled amount of damage.
on the other side 250 lbx pellet rounds should be enough to kill even the best armored target.

to squeeze both facts intoa single formula seems impossible.

[Karl Streiger]

As you should know a similar system is used by Heavy Gear.. although I still think that weapon damage would work in other ways.
Here are the calculated values for Atlas, Wolfhound and Excalibur (this one because it is a fragile Heavy Mech with XL engine)...




The upper green boxes are ablative - means that this armor is able to take most damage...but is destroyed with every hit the mech takes...even a single machinegun shot is able to damage ablative armor...but on the other hand...it is even able to take damage of a AC 20... or reduce it so that a potential kill shot will be only a heavy hit.

The yellow boxes is "standard" armor... a weapon hit is able to penetrate this layer...or bounce off.
Below you see the internals. Every shot that is able to penetrate armor is classified. Based on that classification type of internal components could be hit.
Blue Sturdy...heavy equipment take the shot ...works less effective but is till working.
Green light damage...till grey - dead.

However I'm not sure about the 2nd row. Maybe i just count the internal frame es part of the armor of that Mech. and when a critical hit occure i roll on the table for critical hits to see what component is damaged...or its a dual system...i see what damage the component take...and after that i see what component is hit...so a red hit = 1 critical hit. A dark read hit = 2 critical hits
The boxes before lighter damage.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 22 March 2013 - 01:12 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Hm...for player - selected to hit location:
I have done some calculation at the weekend.... resulting in a large wall of text soon be available at the Game Balancing SubForum...
however ...with player selection you need at first to calculate at what probability a pilot should be able to hit a single location.
Next you should compare it with the assertion you know of TT.

Means: I expect that a Awesome 8Q needs at least 5 times a 3,2 combination of his PPC to break the right torso armor of a Atlas with 24 shots (a regular pilot should need about 60 shots to do it, to hit probability of 41% - means out of 10 just 4 shots hit and those have only the probability of 14% to hit a side torso - when used a even spread)

So you need to improve the armor and you can give a target Mech a specific rating.
For example the AS7-D Atlas could have a 5/4/1 - means 5 out of 10 shots hit the selected location, 4 hit [adjacent] locations, 1 miss entirely - so at least yo deal more damage so you have to improve the specific armor...for example CT x 4, RTx3, Legs and arms x 2
A Jenner rating could look this way: 0/4/6 ...means you could be lucky to hit the Jenner somewhere - a increased armor rating may not be necessary.
A Hunchback could have a rating of 5/2/3...resulting in increased armor of the torso of x4 but arms x1.5 and legs x2.

Important is that you always make cross checks.
For reference i started this one:


Here is a question for the probabillity of hit locations in MWO:
http://mwomercs.com/...-shots-i-hit-a/

Edited by Karl Streiger, 25 March 2013 - 02:21 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Have had some more ideas:

Fist eliminating usage of dices. For this fact every weapon and have a specific damage at a specific range bracket:

• Point Blank (0-3),
  
• Short (4-7)
  
• Medium(8-13)
  
• Long(14-22)
  
• Extreme(23 to 60)

Next every Mech using a specific speed has a defensiv value. The faster you move the better you are.

Every weapon could have specific offensive valuses. Those are modified through own movement.

So you just create a Look Up table...If offensive value of the attacker is higher as the defensive value of the defender. The shot hit.
That will create a Margin of Success...that is multiplicated with the damage of the weapon at this range.
If resulting damage is higher as the armor value...the shot penetrated armor an caused critical damage.
That critical damage is split up in

• sturdy - light damage (effecting heat sinks, actuators, weapons - everything is still working afterwards)
  
• light
  
• medium (
  
• heavy(Fusion, Gyro, Heatsinks, Ammunition)
  
• serious (Gyro, Cockpit, Fusion)
  
• DEAD

Alternative...it should be possible to..use the MWO healtpoint system for internal items. Sturdy is 1hit light are 2hits....


A unit must have at least light and heavy damage internal stats. (important for usage of XL engines)

When the MoS is high enough (3 or more) the attacker can choose a area were the critical damage occured.

Because light mechs will have real problems in bringing down big assaults...the ablative component is still in game (you need just 10 damage...to remove a ablative armor point.

No dice Rolling?
Well all pilots are trained in accademys. So the only difference between a Elite and a Green pilot is the experience and the ability to do more things. So every pilot have actions: Actions are dice rolls.
For example a green pilot have 0.33 Actions per turn (means he can roll a dice every 3 turns). Or he can force a dice in two following rounds...but in the third he has to roll a penalty roll - the other player decide when to roll - this dice
A regular pilot would have 0.75 dice roll per turn
A veteran would have 1 dice roll per turn
A Elite would have 2 dice roll per turn

Dice Rolls could be keeped in back (simulating - a pilot keeping cool)...so a Elite Pilot can roll up to 4 dice in a single round...but again the attacker chooses to roll a penalty dice in the following round.

Those dice could used for everything...to push up the defensive values, the offensive values or other actions (like lock on, using sensors, indirect fire, meele, changing a critical hit)

Its still at the very beginning and it is similar to Heavy Gear...but there are still far from finished.

Here some prototypes of DataCards (Replacing Weapon and armor distribution)
Jenner JR7-F


AS7-K for demonstrating extreme range weapons and XL Fusion


AS7-D for a armored menace

Edited by Karl Streiger, 18 April 2013 - 12:09 AM.

[Pht]

I wouldn't change it that way.

Because to do so would remove the attractions of the game and utterly crap on the novels and all of the other story lore.

Essentially, doing so would make the 'mechs not matter... and frankly, in pen and paper/tabletop or in video gaming, I've been over-saturated with quake 3 style twitch gaming. I suspect many others are also sick of the "yet another version of wolfenstein 3d" syndrome.

Sure, twitch games take some skills. They darn sure don't reward thinking, though.

Edited by Pht, 18 April 2013 - 06:43 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Pht, on 18 April 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

I wouldn't change it that way.

Because to do so would remove the attractions of the game and utterly crap on the novels and all of the other story lore.

Essentially, doing so would make the 'mechs not matter... and frankly, in pen and paper/tabletop or in video gaming, I've been over-saturated with quake 3 style twitch gaming. I suspect many others are also sick of the "yet another version of wolfenstein 3d" syndrome.

Sure, twitch games take some skills. They darn sure don't reward thinking, though.

It would be hard to turn a table top game into a twitch-shooter, Pht.

[Karl Streiger]

Pht, on 18 April 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

I wouldn't change it that way.

Because to do so would remove the attractions of the game and utterly crap on the novels and all of the other story lore.

Why so?
Couldn't be that hard to make reference cross checks.

For example a reference could be a Duell Atlas vs Jenner on the basic map.
The expected results are 3:1 for the Atlas.
Press all the movement, terrain and similar in a programm...and calculate it with any "game mechanic" change about 10000 times. After that the ratio have still to be 3:1.

Atlas is not moving at all.
A very primitive version is allready crosschecking the above mentioned armorsystem. And is is far from balanced.
Because at at medium range a MOS of 1 at short ranges the Jenner got a MoS of 2 and PointPlank of 3 when using full speed to avoid the Atlas incomming fire.
2*4 or 3*5 is not enough to break through the armor...as long as there is the ablative armor.
So the Jenner need 18 shots of his medium lasers at short range or 70 shots at medium range to remove the ablative coat.
Remainig is the hard armor. And here the Jenner has to move into point blank.
And still there are 3*5 dmg not enough to over exceed the remaining armor. So the pilot have to roll a dice. 1d3...means you need at least a 3-6 to break through armor.

Atlas on the other hand. Has a MOS of 0 at short range and open terrain or -1 at short range and rough terrain with cover.
But he can wait until the Jenner get in PB range....MOS is 2 - even if the Jenner has still a roll for his defense the Atlas will have a roll for his attack - when neutralizing that the AC 20 will hammer with a 40dmg into the Jenner...removing 4 points of ablative armor. And causing a single hit on the internal damage (40/13 ~ 3 -(2a) = 1)

Next 2 salvos with same MOS...will finish the Jenner(40/9 ~ 4- (2a) = 2) and 40/5 = 8

So the Atlas will win every game with 3 shots of his AC20.
That is not considering were the hits will land...just really simple math. So i have to improve the values and check them every time.

[Pht]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 April 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

It would be hard to turn a table top game into a twitch-shooter, Pht.

In the sense that you'd be choosing what parts you want to hit from a list instead of from pixels rendered on a screen, you're right.

In the sense of modeling the game so that the 'Mechs don't really matter; all that would matter is if the pilot could get the reticule into the right place and pull the trigger at the right time, and as long as he timed it right and had it in the right place, it would always hit what was under the reticule... and in that sense, it would be a decent representation in pen and paper form of twitch-based aiming.

Karl Streiger, on 18 April 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

Why so?
Couldn't be that hard to make reference cross checks.

To quote myself on the "why" -

Essentially, doing so would make the 'mechs not matter...

Sure, twitch games take some skills. They darn sure don't reward thinking, though.

BT lore and the novels have uniformly had the best mechwarriors as those who could think for their mech the best; because they had to and have to. BTU mechs aren't capable of zero-convergence on all weapons of the same velocity fired at the same time; this encourages thinking, because you have to know how well your mech can handle whatever situation you're in when you pull the triggers. All the training in the world with manipulation of the reticule won't save you in a 'Mech if you have no idea how well it can handle whatever is going on when you pull the triggers.

Zero convergence totally destroys that factor.

[MustrumRidcully]

Pht, on 20 April 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

In the sense that you'd be choosing what parts you want to hit from a list instead of from pixels rendered on a screen, you're right.

In the sense of modeling the game so that the 'Mechs don't really matter; all that would matter is if the pilot could get the reticule into the right place and pull the trigger at the right time, and as long as he timed it right and had it in the right place, it would always hit what was under the reticule... and in that sense, it would be a decent representation in pen and paper form of twitch-based aiming.



To quote myself on the "why" -

Essentially, doing so would make the 'mechs not matter...

Sure, twitch games take some skills. They darn sure don't reward thinking, though.

BT lore and the novels have uniformly had the best mechwarriors as those who could think for their mech the best; because they had to and have to. BTU mechs aren't capable of zero-convergence on all weapons of the same velocity fired at the same time; this encourages thinking, because you have to know how well your mech can handle whatever situation you're in when you pull the triggers. All the training in the world with manipulation of the reticule won't save you in a 'Mech if you have no idea how well it can handle whatever is going on when you pull the triggers.

Zero convergence totally destroys that factor.

The goal of this thread is a bit to figure out - how do you keep the "thinking" factor as you put it in the game.

If hit location choice is possible, it must be a meaningful choice, one that requires thinking. A choice that cannot always have a default answer. With the table top armour values as they are, thec hoice is rather simple. If hitting the head is as easy as going for the CT, go for the head, if not, go for the CT. The armour values of arms, legs and side torsos are too high to make it all that economical to not go for a direct kill.

But what if it it was not that simple? If the armour values of the sensitive spots are so high that going for them is not the best option? Figuring out what the best option is then might be more challenging - if finding the spot most worthy to shoot and destroy is actually dependent on a multitude of factors.

[Karl Streiger]

Pht you know that the choice of hitlocations is already in the tt called TC. In my first games I used them as welcome additional -1 for to hit always ignoring the +3 to go for the kill.
It was the Legionaire and its RAC 5, that changed that.
Its high risk high gain.

if you gave players the choice they will take it. A single blow against 9 or 10 or dozen of hits for a 6 or 7. We both know math and the game to go for the kill.

Below all hitlocations and 2d6 TT is plain simple.
That simple game mechanics have to be extracted first.
I'm sure it could be arranged for a simpler faster game without all the new weapons of Total War.

[Kyone Akashi]

Alright, so here's my idea.

Every single attack is considered an aimed shot. By default (if the player does not announce otherwise), a BattleMech's pilot aims for the Center Torso, as attacking the center mass confers a greater chance of the attack succeeding at all. In the following chart, this is represented by a greater chance to hit adjacent components should the shot miss its primary target.

The core principle of this system is to have two target numbers that need to be considered: Does the attack hit at all (using current standard mechanics), and does the attack hit the section aimed at by the pilot (some penalty). These numbers are the same regardless of which component is targeted, but the penalty should be high enough to ensure that the majority of hits are randomized.

Should the attack miss the aimed component but still be within parameters to hit the 'Mech at all, the following chart (crappy sketch drawn in under 5 minutes in Paint) is consulted to determine which section is affected. For smooth gameplay, I would suggest that a special die of a different color is rolled together with the attack dice, so that a simple glance at this odd-color die is sufficient to determine the location of the hit, not requiring any additional rolls.



Components and scatter points color-coded for your convenience. As you can see, the hit pattern of the odd-colored die would follow a simple "compass" routine, with the 1 pointing upwards and the other numbers going clockwise all around. A red die on the chart means that even an attack that is within the general hit success parameters would still miss. This also results in the Torso being the obvious target for casual shots, as there's only a 1-in-6 chance that a near-miss does not hit any of the adjacent components. Compare this to the arms or legs, where there is a 4-in-6 chance that a near-miss becomes a full-miss.

Gameplay example: MechWarrior Kyone's Centurion fires its Lord's Light PPC at a Davion Jagermech, aiming for its Right Arm. The attack roll is within general success parameters, but sadly does not manage to score the required number for a direct hit on the targeted component - instead triggering the scatter mechanism. Looking at the colored die that was rolled together with the attack dice, the player notes that it landed on a 5, which means that the PPC bolt, whilst missing the dreaded Autocannon the pilot aimed for, does at least melt a few plates of armor off the Jagermech's Right Torso.

Sidenote: I always disliked how, in a great number of games, "aimed shots" make it actually harder to hit anything at all (as if the attack would not still have a chance to hit something else), so I came up with the above. Maybe it's too complicated / bogs the game down too much, but I can't think of something better right now.

One criticism that I'd have towards my own idea is that headshots become too easy, even just by coincidence. Perhaps I'd implement a secondary "headshot check" that automatically ups the target number for the attack once it is redirected towards that component, so that it might still miss. Another option might be to de-couple it from the Right and Left Torso scatter points.

[edit] modified chart after feedback to make accidental headshots less likely

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 28 April 2013 - 02:23 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Good idea, Kyone. Regarding the head situation. I would decouple the head from the right and left torso scatter points in this case. Or alternatively - when you merely "accidentally" hit the head, you deal half damage to the head and half damage to the original location. Also giving the head more "non-hit" situations would make head shots particularly risky - it's really an all or nothing scenario.

Personally, In the spirit of "meaningful choices", I had something more radical in mind:
The basic is the same - there are two difficulty classes, one to hit the enemy mech at all, and another to hit the location you wanted to hit. If you fail only the latter, the attacked player can choose which (adjacent) location the attack hits instead ,or choose to spread the damage across both locations. (An explanation of what happens in game could be that the defender performs defensive maneuerung and torso twisting to misdirect the shot from the intended target).
One of the appeals of the solution is that it would be that it is one die roll less to handle and it gives more meaningful decisions in game. But of course, whether handling a die roll goes faster than making a decision is another matter.

[Karl Streiger]

Like both ideas. Although i would say that the head is in most cases part of the center torso. A missed head shot will go for the CT for the most...based on the target a missed headshot could become a complete miss too.

I think the scatter diagramm could fit perfectly on the "layout" of a Mech. For example the head as part of the Right Torso for the Thunderbolt - or a missed head shot vs the Jenner could hit the CT or the legs - from front...or a side torso or a complete miss from the flank.

Its a interesting system even if it bloats the game.

Another approach:
As the rules are now: aimed shoting just affects the Offensiv Value of a Mech. - You shoot ...or you miss...but nothing bad happens
What if it affects the Devensiv Value - aiming means you take a large portion of your concentration into shooting... becoming blind for other aspects on the battle field... just for the moment you are aiming ... you can become prey for another Mech.

Another downside is that a target can recognize that you are aiming at him.

You have done similar in MWO...I'm sure with that - you see a target - that looks at you but didn't has shot.
You know in that very second...when i have that feeling i do three things as fast as possible...chance acceleration...change course a little bit and fire a weapon...some where at the target. The combination of all three things make it possible that even a Atlas in the open can doge incomming PPC fire.

So you can aim for a specific component of the target: resulting in "maybe" a faster kill (when not alterning the hitlocations)
But others can target you more easily and good enemy pilots can distract your shot - resulting in a miss.

[Kyone Akashi]

MustrumRidcully, on 21 April 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

Regarding the head situation. I would decouple the head from the right and left torso scatter points in this case. Or alternatively - when you merely "accidentally" hit the head, you deal half damage to the head and half damage to the original location. Also giving the head more "non-hit" situations would make head shots particularly risky - it's really an all or nothing scenario.

Yeah, perhaps having only the Center Torso's top scatter point leading towards the Head, but the Head's scatter points leading nowhere at all, would be an elegant solution to that issue. It makes accidental headshots possible, if unlikely - and makes aimed headshots possible, but difficult, and with no reward for a miss. Good input!

MustrumRidcully, on 21 April 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

The basic is the same - there are two difficulty classes, one to hit the enemy mech at all, and another to hit the location you wanted to hit. If you fail only the latter, the attacked player can choose which (adjacent) location the attack hits instead ,or choose to spread the damage across both locations. (An explanation of what happens in game could be that the defender performs defensive maneuerung and torso twisting to misdirect the shot from the intended target).

I like this one, too! It sounds sufficiently realistic for my taste, and as if it wouldn't slow gameplay down too much. You could even use every 'Mechs standard damage bleed diagram to connect the various components and show the options. I'd probably advocate a solution where the damage is applied in full to a different section rather than spread, simply to not introduce any more math (as simple as basic division may be).

The downside of this is that the opponent will of course tend to nominate components that are the least damaged, resulting in a tendency towards a fairly even damage spread rather than accidental component destruction - however, this could be compensated by successful aimed shots (potentially exploiting an opponent's choice of nominated sections, changing their aim to target weaker sections instead of what they usually wanted to disable) .. and it still sounds a bit easier than my die-based mechanic.

[MustrumRidcully]

Kyone Akashi, on 22 April 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

Yeah, perhaps having only the Center Torso's top scatter point leading towards the Head, but the Head's scatter points leading nowhere at all, would be an elegant solution to that issue. It makes accidental headshots possible, if unlikely - and makes aimed headshots possible, but difficult, and with no reward for a miss. Good input!

I like this one, too! It sounds sufficiently realistic for my taste, and as if it wouldn't slow gameplay down too much. You could even use every 'Mechs standard damage bleed diagram to connect the various components and show the options. I'd probably advocate a solution where the damage is applied in full to a different section rather than spread, simply to not introduce any more math (as simple as basic division may be).

The downside of this is that the opponent will of course tend to nominate components that are the least damaged, resulting in a tendency towards a fairly even damage spread rather than accidental component destruction - however, this could be compensated by successful aimed shots (potentially exploiting an opponent's choice of nominated sections, changing their aim to target weaker sections instead of what they usually wanted to disable) .. and it still sounds a bit easier than my die-based mechanic.

Well, TT players are used to dice and tables, so I am sure they'd manage that, too.

Of course the defending player will try to spread damage around - but imagine the situations where has to choose between the plague and cholera... (For example, do I rather lose my arm, or my side torso with the arm? If I lose the arm, I lose less, unless the hit also triggers a critical that explodes the ammo in the arm, but if I sacrifice the side torso, the crits can only occur there, and there is nothing bad that could be affected there...)

[Dakkaface]

I'm seeing a LOT of new, complicated rules in this thread to address this issue. While some of them are interesting I think there is a very simple change one could make to address this without changing much. It's cribbed from Inquisitor and it's Dead Eye Shot perk.

When you roll hit locations and consult the table, you can move the damage up or down by one on the table. 2 and 12 are off limits to this movement - you must hit them naturally.

[Kyone Akashi]

Probably the easiest - and thus best - solution, yeah.

It's always possible to come up with some convoluted rule to make this or that more realistic or cooler. The tricky thing is making it so that it doesn't complicate things too much, slowing the game down and turning it into mathfest.

[SMDMadCow]

No need to make stuff up, there's already rules for aiming.

[Karl Streiger]

SMDMadCow, on 23 April 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

No need to make stuff up, there's already rules for aiming.

Generally you are right. There are rules that can "simulate" aiming.
There are rules that give you a better modificator the longer you aim (come form Duell rules - and didn't really work in larger size battles...because 3 rounds not moving?)
Than there were rules for Called Shots (left, right, high, low) But they increased the cance to miss, too.

With what I known from the lore - aiming means that the pilot does manuell convergence calculations eg.. like Dan Allard did with his Wolfhound killing the Archer of Kell while those had "phantom" skill enabled.
So you can explain how...a aimed shot can miss completely.

On the other hand...a experienced pilot would have a macro or the knowlege to hack those figures in no time...and even when his calculations were not 100% accurat the aimed shot will still hit the target.

Like in SilentHunter....your torpedo may not hit the steven or the machine rooms...but it will still be a hit.

[Kyone Akashi]

Exactly. Regardless of the game I always thought it strange when there were rules for aiming that dictated that you'd either hit the targeted component or nothing at all. Imagine you're going for someone's Right Torso ... how likely is it that your aimed shot won't at least hit an arm, or the CT, even when it misses its intended target?
I've always interpreted such mechanics as balancing overriding realism - whilst at the same time thinking there's got to be a better way to solve this.

As for targeting in the lore, from what I've read the non-missile weapons are aimed manually or at least have an option to do so, rather than having to do with any calculations. I distinctively remember "joystick aim" from a scene in the novel Black Dragon where a downed 'Mech used it to raise its PPC at a nearby enemy. Of course, it could be just a matter of distances (maybe there's a switch from automated to manual targeting, with the former being more reliable on longer range?) .. or it is a detail that changes depending on what author writes a book. That being said, if targeting was a fully automated process, then a pilot's Gunnery skill would matter little, as the computer does everything for him/her and they'd just have to move the weapon's platform, triggering their guns whenever the green light blinks.