60 replies to this topic

[Davers]

I voted yes, because something has to be done to make mechs that reply on DPS damage instead of high alpha strikes more viable. All the mechs that are considered 'not valid' for competitive play are that way because there is high alpha mech in their category that is just better.

[EmperorMyrf]

I do enjoy how this theoretically works. IIRC, MW2 was a bit like this, in that dissipation was higher and capacity was lower. While the weapons weren't really too balanced amongst each other (not near as much as it is now), the overall feel was better i think.

Perhaps a system like this would work?:

- Heat capacity = 1.4x SHS or 1x DHS
- Heat dissipation = 0.2x SHS or 0.28x DHS

There's no 30 heat buffer anymore, so the multiple alpha business is gone, but the capacity isn't too tiny. Also, in the long term (i.e. beyond 1 or 2 chains of weapons fire) DHS has the advantage. So while DHS is still better than SHS in general, there's still a reason to pick SHS over DHS unlike now.

In addition, this setup will encourage mixed setups as boated weapons or weapons sets within a given range could potentially be redundant as explained earlier in the thread. With SHSs, the redundancy shouldn't exist so those boat builds are still doable and still viable due to the higher alpha capacity. Lets look at examples with the CPLT-K2 (chosen because it runs pretty hot right now):

Current Scheme:

50 heat capacity
24 heat per alpha
3 alphas to overheat
sustained DPS: 27.3% maximum

Suggested scheme:

28 heat capacity
24 heat per alpha
2 alphas to overheat
sustained DPS: 54.5% maximum

Current Scheme with DHS:

64 heat capacity
24 heat per alpha
3 alphas to overheat
sustained DPS: 46.4% maximum

Suggested scheme with DHS:

20 heat capacity
24 heat per alpha
1 alpha to overheat
sustained DPS: 76.4% maximum


The suggested scheme numbers were arbitrarily chosen, but it seems to be looking ok. I was concerned that changing the dissipation would skew the efficiencies of weapons too hard, but it actually drives it to being level all around.

[Corvus Antaka]

the massivley high heat cap + crap dissapation + coolant flush now in game + PGI not listening to 6 months of intelligent feedback on how to adjust the heatscale down to force more link fire & less 3 alphas yur dead gameplay is the only truly big problem.

stalkers are now killing 2-3 guys with lasers, srms and lrms before any heat troubles.

And while missiles are fubar right now, the heatscale itself, and the massive damage outputs it allows with almost 0 consideration for building a heat efficient mech remains the biggest problem in the game, and is most visible on the extreme mechs - 6 ppc, 9 medium lasers, or dual ac/20

I have no issues with any of these builds, BUT, the damage they can focus fire onto targets combined with the high heatcap only encourages boat warrior/alpha strike warrior/wack-a-mole/peek-a-boo gameplay, combined with the current LRM situation and ECM we are looking right at mech4 all over again.

mech4 wasnt bad, but it was never great. but whats FUNNY is that the good stuff from mech4 - radar, hardpoints, the stuff that was innovative, thats gone.

But the wack-a-mole 6 large laser boat, the 4 ppc masakari is now a 6 ppc stalker...

and the jumpsnipers and their buddies got ECM..better than passive radar ever was.

really...kinda funny actually.

The games shaping up pretty good. But double armour doesnt mean squat with the current boat warrior we are seeing, and the heat scale is still the prime and most obvious way to force these big alphas out of gameplay in favour of more balanced and efficient builds that are actually reasonable.

[MustrumRidcully]

Ralgas, on 20 March 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

And we'd just see a shift to ballistics mounting multiple gauss, mainly the k2, any phract or the jaggers.

Maybe even more radical t han what I mentioned so far: If there was no base heat capacity at all, or just a minimum one, then even these mechs could be "heat-limited" in that way. The more the heat capacity is determined by the heat sinks you have, the less heat capacity a low-heat-weapons mech would have (unless he puts in more heat sinks than he needs for dissipation). I think such a system can only reasonably work with a heat scale that has different levels of heat penalties, however.

Currently however, the Alpha Strike builds are in the 60 to 90 damage range (PPCs, SRMs). You won't get there with any of the current ballistic-focused mechs, you just run out of weight, hard points and crit slots. In fact, you will never have a mech that could fit more than 4 Gauss Rifles or 4 AC/20s - crit slots just won't allow it. (And whether you can actually fit 60 tons of weapons in any mech I am not sure...)

[Mudhawk]

First off, nice post, good argumentation. As is to be expected from the archchancelor of the Unseen University.
The quality of the feedback and subtle lack of trolling should also be commended.

Now I have to admit that I do not have much to contribute to this discussion in terms of mathemagic or theoretical gamecraft. But I'd like to point out that with the dawn of consumables in MWO a HIGH heat treshold is exactly what PGI wants.
Obviously the abillity to stack lots of heat plus purchaseable coolants plus a new and very hot Desert Map all points to a very specific strategem.
I'm not saying "Cut my own Throat" Dibbler devised the Heat system.
Maybe it was one of his many relatives.
Because nothing sells cool drinks like a loooong, dry heat....

Edited by Mudhawk, 21 March 2013 - 12:22 AM.

[FiveDigits]

Mudhawk, on 21 March 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

First off, nice post, good argumentation. As is to be expected from the archchancelor of the Unseen University.
The quality of the feedback and subtle lack of trolling should also be commended.

Now I have to admit that I do not have much to contribute to this discussion in terms of mathemagic or theoretical gamecraft. But I'd like to point out that with the dawn of consumables in MWO a HIGH heat treshold is exactly what PGI wants.
Obviously the abillity to stack lots of heat plus purchaseable coolants plus a new and very hot Desert Map all points to a very specific strategem.
I'm not saying "Cut my own Throat" Dibbler devised the Heat system.
Maybe it was one of his many relatives.
Because nothing sells cool drinks like a loooong, dry heat....

SQUEAK!

[FiveDigits]

EmperorMyrf, on 20 March 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

[...]
- Heat capacity = 1.4x SHS or 1x DHS
- Heat dissipation = 0.2x SHS or 0.28x DHS
[...]

Good post otherwise, but who in their right mind would pay 2 additional crit slots for +0.08 HPS dissipation at the loss of 0.4 heat capacity. I wouldn't touch those DHS with a ten foot pole.

(edit: 0.2 HPS SHS and 0.4 HPS DHS might be reasonable in your model.)

Edited by FiveDigits, 21 March 2013 - 01:13 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Heat Spikes, riding the heat wave?
Hell Yeeeeesssss!!!!

base heat capacity should be adjusted by mech type. each additional heat sink should improve the heat cap for 2% of the base cap, no matter if it is dhs or shs.
example.
k2 hase base cap of 30. 20shs increase it to 36. 10dhs would stay at 30.
jaeger should have base cap of 15. 20shs would mean heat cap of 18.

now you have your differenc back.

[TheJs]

I think if you get the dissipation:capacity values right, your suggestion will move people away from large alphas from the highest heat weapons. In this I agree with you but I do not think it '...creates choices...' as per your title. All it does is restrict people's ability to fire multiple high heat weapons together while shifting them to using the lowest heat:highest damage combo of weapons.

Plus implementation of the OP's suggestion hinges on the assumption that alpha strikes are bad. It's really about how the developers and the community wants the game to be played, and in this I do not see one method of shooting winning over the other. Personal opinions and 'In Battletech lore mechs don't sually boat 6 SRMs' do not seem to be valid oppositions to alpha strikes.

Edit: reworded my first sentence

Edited by TheJs, 21 March 2013 - 03:56 AM.

[Ralgas]

MustrumRidcully, on 20 March 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

Maybe even more radical t han what I mentioned so far: If there was no base heat capacity at all, or just a minimum one, then even these mechs could be "heat-limited" in that way. The more the heat capacity is determined by the heat sinks you have, the less heat capacity a low-heat-weapons mech would have (unless he puts in more heat sinks than he needs for dissipation). I think such a system can only reasonably work with a heat scale that has different levels of heat penalties, however.

Currently however, the Alpha Strike builds are in the 60 to 90 damage range (PPCs, SRMs). You won't get there with any of the current ballistic-focused mechs, you just run out of weight, hard points and crit slots. In fact, you will never have a mech that could fit more than 4 Gauss Rifles or 4 AC/20s - crit slots just won't allow it. (And whether you can actually fit 60 tons of weapons in any mech I am not sure...)

No, but i happily run 35->45 alpha mixed ballistic/energy snipers that only generate 14~21 heat for the effort (and the higher alpha is the lower heat generator!!). If you remove the cap altogether you make ballistics op & and make recycle times on high heat weapons redundant, if you raise heat on ballistics to compensate you remove the trade off they had to begin with.

Edited by Ralgas, 21 March 2013 - 04:12 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Part of the issue with the heat systems is the games still using the TT values for available location space.
Except for some arm actuators all mechs from the commando to the atlas get what 10 or 12 slot locations in the arms.
the in game models are way off in terms of scale and available storage space.why i can only mount one energy weapon in an atlas arm is beyond me.

If the number of internal slots was scaled to model size it would radically alter the number of heat sinks. it would also counter balance any nerf to the atlas from being such an easy to hit target due to art/subjective decisions on size.

basically the game needs a do over and cut as many TT strings as possible to reinvent BT/MWO for the 21 century.
In this instance i do be-leave a "It's not TT get over it" comment would be fitting.

[Zyllos]

FiveDigits, on 20 March 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

You guys make me cringe. We have explained, we have mathed it out, we made you graphs.
Double dissipation is not "OP" or "game breaking".
Still people come into every heat discussion and drop their "0.2 is OP" one liner because "PGI said so". Stop guys, please stop.

But I do not say this just because PGI said it.

I say this because of how high RoF is along with weapon convergence (non-random weapon damage distribution) will make games very short. Also having no heat penalties to go along with it, and those heat penalties would need to start immediately to ever effect game play, would also need to be implemented.

This is why I say 0.2 is a bit too much.

Edited by Zyllos, 21 March 2013 - 05:02 AM.

[FiveDigits]

Zyllos, on 21 March 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

[...] I say this because of how high RoF is [...]

The high RoF is exactly the reason why even 0.2 HPS can't keep mechs cool.
What we suggest is decreasing front loaded damage (lower heat cap) and (slightly) increasing sustained DPS (for some builds). That's really what it boils down to. I have yet to be shown how the suggested changes would shorten engagements.

Nevertheless, heat penalties and weapon convergence are other issues on top of the base heat mechanics which are worth looking at.

Edited by FiveDigits, 21 March 2013 - 05:09 AM.

[HammerSwarm]

great thread, I hope they listen. This goes hand in hand with the , Why isn't the dragon better, thread. It's because I get alpha'd with a convergence strike, and the armor on my center torso that was 60 is now zero and a stiff wind makes my engine explode.

[ryoma]

I really like this!

[Deathlike]

I'm starting to think the following should be done:
+1 heat capacity to both SHS/DHS engine heatsinks
+1 heat capacity to external SHS heatsinks
+.7 heat capacity to external DHS heatsinks (essentially, half the expected heat capacity gain of DHS @ 1.4)
+1 heat capacity to both SHS/DHS external heatsinks that are added to an engine that supports them (275+ or greater)

That should keep mechs like the hexa-stalker in check... for now.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 March 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[EmperorMyrf]

FiveDigits, on 21 March 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

Good post otherwise, but who in their right mind would pay 2 additional crit slots for +0.08 HPS dissipation at the loss of 0.4 heat capacity. I wouldn't touch those DHS with a ten foot pole.

(edit: 0.2 HPS SHS and 0.4 HPS DHS might be reasonable in your model.)

It's a bit deceptive. Assuming you chain-fired, the DHS build can actually hold its maximum DPS longer than the SHS build. The super high dissipation of the DHS means that you will reach your heat cap much slower, even if it's relatively lower.

Literally the only advantage SHSs outside of the mechlab have (in my examples at least) are that they let you alpha strike once without overheating.

But again, these numbers were chosen arbitrarily.

[rgreat]

Mudhawk, on 21 March 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

But I'd like to point out that with the dawn of consumables in MWO a HIGH heat treshold is exactly what PGI wants.
Obviously the abillity to stack lots of heat plus purchaseable coolants plus a new and very hot Desert Map all points to a very specific strategem.

It is quite easy to make consumables viable with Low Heat Capacity.

Instead of massive instant heat drop (1 second) provide a smaller bonus to heat dissipation for 10 seconds.
Problem solved.

That in fact is more realistic and very close to canonical coolant pods.

Edited by rgreat, 22 March 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[ryoma]

This topic needs more dev attention.

[Xerxys]

Again the main problem with the whole heat system came when PGI tripled rate of fire, tried to counter act that by doubling armor, then did this stupid thing with increasing the heat cap. All to prevent Alpha striking non stop? FAIL! What should have happened when they increased rate of fire was a cut to damage and heat generation to 1/3 of TT values. This would have allowed for the game to be played as it was meant to be played. Do you want to alpha strike? Go ahead. You might get 2-3, but then your *** belongs to me. While you're shut down, I'm chewing through your rear armor. I'll give you a chance at another alpha when you finish cooling and hopefully I hit cover as you fire and again I'm on your *** chewing at the rear armor.... dead!

PGI made one change and ignore the rest of the aspects directly affected by that change. This is where the downfall of the heat system truly lies. The game should allow for the choice to alpha strike, and it should be viable for me to limit myself and still be able to fire 2-3 weapons every ~3 seconds without my heat speedily going up. Under the current system chain-firing is the least useful of the firing methods, imo, because you're trying to keep your laser on target and you're not dissipating heat as fast as you should be.

.2 heat dissipation would not be OP if the cap wasn't so high. If you're dissipating .2heat/sec from one DHS you'll be able to play how you choose to play. Their are pros and cons to every play style, but at least this would give everyone the option and not just those Alpha PPC snipers.

I've lived through the gauss domination time and I can do it again. The major difference between someone alpha striking with gauss v. ppcs are that you can only fit at most 2 gauss and you have a limited supply of ammo. PPC's can come at you 6 at a time right now. So 60 damage at once or 30? Drop the cap to where it should be and bye-bye x6 ppcs. At least the gauss runs out of ammo.

Everyone has their own play style and I truly believe that PGI is trying to create a balance to it, but I fear they ****** it up in the beginning and have devoted themselves to it entirely and now we have what we have.

This argument has been a constant since early on in the 1st closed beta and continues even still. I wasn't around for the first round of closed beta, but the forums were still up when I started playing during the second round. I immediately read most of the posts when I noticed something was horribly wrong with the heat system after a couple hours of play. PGI has ignored everyone who tries to fix their mistake.

Edited by Xerxys, 26 March 2013 - 02:17 AM.