55 replies to this topic

[Voidcrafter]

stjobe, on 21 March 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

I call them "instant-hit" because they deliver their damage in one instant hit, as opposed to the beam weapons that deliver their damage evenly during their beam duration.

Alrgihty - I'm glad we came to an agreement
Feels more like THE agreement actually.
Cheers

[El Penguin]

The skill involve in my opinion

Lasers: Hold beam on specific section for 1-2 seconds
Ballistics: Aiming ahead for moving targets (which most targets are moving)
LRM: Decide whether it's safe to fire your missiles if the target is near cover at long ranges or if close to the 180m range
SRM: Aiming ahead for moving targets
SSRM: Pressing the "R" button on your keyboard (Though you need to be doing this anyway if you're a good player)

I have no favorite weapon really so I'm pretty sure it's not biased. I like all the weapons and like to mix up my mechs or else I'd get bored after awhile.

[Gaan Cathal]

Denolven, on 21 March 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

There is a difference between "use" and "use effectively". Lasers are very easy, because you have 1 second to adjust your aim, and they hit where you aim. Ballistics are the toughest one to master, because you don't get a second chance AND have to have pinpoint lead accuracy.
But that's ok, ballistics are the pro weapons (very great if you can hit), and lasers are the newbie weapons - easy to use and still viable for pros due to the "out of ammo" issue. Looks fair to me.

This, obviously, being only applicable for Heavy mechs and heavier, since for anything smaller than that ballistics are an irrelevance.

[Ph30nix]

there are only 2 weapons that require any SPECIAL consideration

the ultra AC/5: careful firing or they will jam

LRM's: require a lock before they do anything you cant look away or switch targets, also if you try hitting things without a lock good luck

every other weapon is just point and click... how is that hard? none of them are hard

[Denolven]

Gaan Cathal, on 21 March 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

[/size]
This, obviously, being only applicable for Heavy mechs and heavier, since for anything smaller than that ballistics are an irrelevance.

Yeah, I'd very much like to see ballistic weapons lighter than 6 tons, other than the current "useless against armor" MGs (which are ok, but I want something against armor too). I can't hit with the ACs, but I know some people can, so I'm all for variety.
But that's another topic

Ph30nix, on 21 March 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

every other weapon is just point and click... how is that hard? none of them are hard

Ho there, slow down. If you really think that this is the case, then you are part of a very small elite. Us common folk has trouble with aiming ballistics. Don't expect everyone to have your mouse skills. the statistics even show that - most people use lasers as main weapons. And that's perfectly fine. If you can handle more, feel free to upgrade your damage output by taking ballistic weapons as main weapons.

Edited by Denolven, 21 March 2013 - 03:17 AM.

[Abivard]

funny, SRM's which only need to be aimed in the general direction of your target is not seen as easy.

Direct fire hi speed instant damage weapons with no ballistic curves are seen as skill needed.

An ER laser which has to be held steady over a period of time while both you and your enemy are traveling at speed over uneven grounds is seen as not needing skill.

The concept that acquiring, and maintaining effective missile lock takes less skill then simply pointing and pulling a trigger for any other weapon.

This poll is getting answered by people who are putting down weapons that kill them and they have trouble using as easy and the opposite for the weapons they use themselves, which they will mostly claim does take great skill.

Poll is Epic Fail

[Voidcrafter]

Abivard, on 21 March 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

funny, SRM's which only need to be aimed in the general direction of your target is not seen as easy.

Direct fire hi speed instant damage weapons with no ballistic curves are seen as skill needed.

An ER laser which has to be held steady over a period of time while both you and your enemy are traveling at speed over uneven grounds is seen as not needing skill.

The concept that acquiring, and maintaining effective missile lock takes less skill then simply pointing and pulling a trigger for any other weapon.

This poll is getting answered by people who are putting down weapons that kill them and they have trouble using as easy and the opposite for the weapons they use themselves, which they will mostly claim does take great skill.

Poll is Epic Fail

Well yea - this was actually the main idea - to see what people think about the weapons
Probably you failed when see the poll as a fail.
And about the SRMs - to cover all the scenarios, try to imagine for a second, that you're not looking just to hit something but to actually do the most harm the effitiently you could.
That doesn't mean firing 4xSRM6s and hitting the target with about 10 missiles right?
And besidets, if you haven't noted, to do the most harm with them you should be about 120m from the target, cause their flight pat is as follows:
about 0-10-20m - the spread is tight.
10- ~100m - the spread is wide.
~100 - ~140 - they tighten their spread, making the volley look almost like an AC20 round.
170+ - they already look like a shotgun fire.
Tho I fire mostly with feeling-the-force style - those numbers are not completely correct, but that's the general behaviour of the SRMs.
And btw I often kill commando-s, ravens and all sorta 120+km/h mechs with it, without missing like 50% of the shots - I'm ready to argue till death that this actually DO require skill.
Come to think about it... I really refer to SRMs as an anti-light weapon - probably you said all that cause it differs from what you have in mind.
Not to mention - as ballistics - hitting(properly) a desired body part on enemy mech while 100m+ away aint as easy as you described. Especially, again, on the fast ones.
But thank you for the opinion anyways

[Murku]

Having used all weapon systems across over a dozen mechs I voted LRMs for Hardest and Easiest.

EASY: Lasers are child's play to hit with, and only a challenge to maintain on target where significant speed is involved. If either attacker of defender is travelling over 120kph Pulse or Smalls are the way to go, otherwise super-efficient ML or LL. SSRMS with ECM are likewise silly easy.

AVERAGE: PPCs are a stepping stone between Lasers and Ballistics, with no ammo to worry about you can use them fairly liberally and they score solid full damage hits at higher ranges. Likewise, SRMs only take a little lead due to involved ranges, and SSRMs without ECM require some thought when ECM is about.

HARD: Ballistics, particularly slower rounds like the Gauss and AC20 are very punishing when you miss, due to Ammo constraints. Lead time and convergence issues make arm-mounted ACs a challenge. Lower Damage rounds like AC2s require a lot of face-time and draw a lot of attention, making them harder to use and survive.

HARDEST and EASIEST: LRMs SEEM easy to use (particularly when splash is broken) and without ECM (yes I use TAG) they would be. But ECM (especially mounted in Lights), smarter players using cover and several small maps make bringing an LRM heavy mech to the battlefield something of a gamble. Even using a Stalker 3F, with TAG and Target Decay modules, I work harder for a result than a direct fire build.

So, LRMs are easy against newer players, but hard against grouped veterans.

[Abivard]

Leading a target equates to skill? I would rate that as common sense.
3 shots you should have your lead down pat. only 2 weapons do not require you to lead, ssrm and LRM.
But they do require locks, which serve the same purpose in this case.
Lasers are damage over time, all other weapons are instant damage.
A Laser must be held steady over a seconds time to be effective, so if merely sweeping a laser for a micro second across the target counts as hitting, then one srm hit out of a splatcat's 36 should also count.

An SRM is simply a huge shotgun, it is simple to hit with a shotgun, harder with a rifle, and harder still with a pistol.

Add into that the SRM's do splash damage and what you have is a shotgun grenade launcher, so the missiles "DON'T" even have to hit their target to do damage.

Close only counts with horseshoes and handgrenades goes the old saying, so how does it take skill to use a weapon when you only have to be close to hitting your target to count, vs something that has to be held steady with pinpoint accuracy for over a second like a laser?

The Laser is the most difficult weapon to use to its full potential. Ergo it requires the most skill.

SRM's the easiest to achieve full potential. reference splatcat

[Ph30nix]

Denolven, on 21 March 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

Ho there, slow down. If you really think that this is the case, then you are part of a very small elite. Us common folk has trouble with aiming ballistics. Don't expect everyone to have your mouse skills. the statistics even show that - most people use lasers as main weapons. And that's perfectly fine. If you can handle more, feel free to upgrade your damage output by taking ballistic weapons as main weapons.

lol aiming is differnt than using and leading a target doesnt take TOO long to learn either, but i was just meaning that the very basic level of using, its just point and click, now as you said skill with them increases your accuracy which means more damage.
skill allows you to control your heat better and be able to get off more shots aka more damage

but essentialy every weapon except the UAC/5 and LRM's require special considerations when firing. and LRM's are one of the only weapons where their damage are also dependant on the opponents skills.

all the other weapons are just dependant on your ability to lead the target.

still ill say the UAC/5 is the hardest to use properly but only because of their dang gimicky jam thing.

[Denolven]

Abivard, on 21 March 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

Leading a target equates to skill?

No, but knowing how far exactly in what kind of relative motion and with what weapon (projectile speed), all while in the heat of battle, THAT is a skill. Everyone knows we have to lead, but still most people can't hit. Now you may call me silly, but I claim that this is due to lack of a certain skill.

Edited by Denolven, 21 March 2013 - 04:28 AM.

[Thorqemada]

Well, i use ACs as well as Lasers as well as Missiles.

The most Skill is needed for weapons fired at a significant range while requiring a serious amount of leading the target for movement compensation.
So ACs, Gauss, PPC, SSRM used in such a Situation show/need the most skill.

LRM/SSRM show the second most skill bcs of the many rules and counters you have to take in mind to use them with impact.

Point and Click weapons like Lasers need the least skill in every situation.

The amount of skill the use of a weapons needs/shows is no deciding factor for my Mech builds - i strictly play what Mech is the most fun to me.
Atm this is a CN9-A with 1xMG, 1xLRM10, 2xSRM4, 2xML and a STD 275 engine.

I only played 3 matches since March 7th and my LRM 10 has a whopping 16% accuracy, Lasers have a >85% accuracy.

PS: I inflicted 8 points of damage with my MG in the 2 matches i used it hitting with ~200 rounds.

Edited by Thorqemada, 21 March 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Voidcrafter]

Abivard, on 21 March 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

Leading a target equates to skill? I would rate that as common sense.
3 shots you should have your lead down pat. only 2 weapons do not require you to lead, ssrm and LRM.
But they do require locks, which serve the same purpose in this case.
Lasers are damage over time, all other weapons are instant damage.
A Laser must be held steady over a seconds time to be effective, so if merely sweeping a laser for a micro second across the target counts as hitting, then one srm hit out of a splatcat's 36 should also count.

An SRM is simply a huge shotgun, it is simple to hit with a shotgun, harder with a rifle, and harder still with a pistol.

Add into that the SRM's do splash damage and what you have is a shotgun grenade launcher, so the missiles "DON'T" even have to hit their target to do damage.

Close only counts with horseshoes and handgrenades goes the old saying, so how does it take skill to use a weapon when you only have to be close to hitting your target to count, vs something that has to be held steady with pinpoint accuracy for over a second like a laser?

The Laser is the most difficult weapon to use to its full potential. Ergo it requires the most skill.

SRM's the easiest to achieve full potential. reference splatcat

Judging by your reply I can tell that either you're not using SRMs, or if you do - you're probably splatcatin' and stuff.
To squeeze the most efficiency from this weapon do require skill. As for all the rest.
I am mostly piloting a heavy with an XL engine so when I go against another heavy, assault or light, that's fast as hell it really DOES matter how good you are and you can't go shotgun stuff, cause every hit counts.
You're still not trying to imagine that there are people out there who actually use this weapon to hit components instead of just splashing everything on their target.
And I'm talking about builds that can carry 2/3 SRMs. Not like 3+, cause there you don't require to put alot of effort to do serious damage - I agree with that.
Like ballistics - it's not that hard to use at all.
But to master it really requires some thinking, calculations, effort and experience. Patience too.
Yea - it's not hart to lead the target, but try that ~900m away with UAC5(which have very limited ammo) and land more than 50% of the hits on moving target, no matter the class.
Or in 50m - brawl range, while tango-ing with another mech (medium, fast heavy, assault that hand-shield himself) to hit the right component.
With the lasers it's not that hard - you point the part, hold your cursor there, hit it - all cool and dandy.
With trajectory weapons... not so easy - smart enemies turn around, change directions. Fast ones circle around you with 130+km/h, try to stay behind you, jumpjet and stuff...
Anyone in the game can hit targets, that are standing still, but most of the players don't do that, or don't walk toward you in a straight line. And this is how things should be.
My idea is that to be VERY efficient with weapons with travel time, it really comes down to skill.
Can't agree with you

[TJ Saint]

Personally, I use whatever fit the situation and mech calls for. Take the Com-2D: streaks. Why? At 150kph, they take little to no thought, so I can focus on evading the other mechs who tend to obliterate commandos. Atlas D-DC: large pulse, AC/20, streaks: streaks are for those annoying commando 2Ds circling me too fast for me to effectively hit at close range with the ac/20.
It all depends on the mech and what you're using it for, in 8-mans, pugging, or four man dropping.

[Barghest Whelp]

Voidcrafter, on 21 March 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

Yea it was a typo, sorry about that...
I'm playing mechcommander gold from time to time, so it's not that hard to mess things up a bit

Yes, I also like MCG. On a side note, they're called X-Pulse lasers. X-Pulse is basically an ER Pulse.

[Voidcrafter]

Barghest Whelp, on 21 March 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

Yes, I also like MCG. On a side note, they're called X-Pulse lasers. X-Pulse is basically an ER Pulse.

Also - here are my general stats:


You can now note how efficent the machinegun is
Sidenote:
My accuracy with the ballistics is this bad, because about 50% of the time I am either firing at 600<-->1300m range on moving targets, or I'm firing at suspicious blue dots in the distance, which often turns to be either in cover, dead or some random smoke.
With the missiles on my heavy I ordinary stay around 100-200m and I got ARTEMIS on only one mech this far. Don't know how bad it is.
But 2100 shots and 70 damage... man... I don't know how to react

Edit: forgot to mention the "heat test" shots at the begining of some rounds.
Edit2: I misread the MCG(MechCommander Gold) as something related with the machinegun, sorry
I really think it is very underrated game for it's time, even for nowadays - I always carry a flash drive around, when I gotto go out of town, away from my gamer PC, with MCG on it - it stores the saves there, and it's a good timesink.
Great game.

Edited by Voidcrafter, 21 March 2013 - 05:20 AM.

[Josef Nader]

Small dakka is hardest to use. Putting that extremely precise damage into the same spot enough times to actually do real damage takes a sharp eye and a steady hand. Streak SRMs are the easiest. At least the guy on the other end can dodge LRM fire. It's impossible to avoid taking damage from streaks (or rather, exceptionally difficult).

I prefer dakka and dakka like (PPCs/ERPPCs) weapons, regardless of size. Ballistics are awesome and rewarding.

[Khobai]

Quote

It's impossible to avoid taking damage from streaks

Streaks are actually the easiest weapons to avoid taking damage from if youre doing 4-mans. Just run multiple mechs with ECM and jam the streak users. Yes Streaks are very powerful if you don't have ECM, but if you're not running ECM and getting victimized by Streaks, it's your own fault.

Aside from the broken LRMs which are getting fixed later today, SRM6s are by far the lamest weapons because of the ridiculous damage to heat ratio plus the fact ECM has no effect on them whatsoever. SRM6s are the MWO equivalent of the noobtube... its a low skill weapon that does absurd damage.

Edited by Khobai, 21 March 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[Mercules]

I checked every weapon for the first two questions. I then went on to select that I use mostly Lasers, why? Because every mech I own has at least a Med Laser for backup. Streaks are possibly the least difficult to use but ONLY on something that carries ECM. With everything else it takes some skill to lock on the ECM mech in that narrow band of range you have and keep them there while you fire your Streaks. With Mechs with TAG you have a bit more range but now have to hold that tag on them lust like a laser so it is basically the same skill. Those actually takes a bit of skill. Remove ECM and Streaks would be the hands down easiest weapon system to use.

[Josef Nader]

Khobai, on 21 March 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Streaks are actually the easiest weapons to avoid taking damage from if youre doing 4-mans. Just run multiple mechs with ECM and jam the streak users. Yes Streaks are very powerful if you don't have ECM, but if you're not running ECM and getting victimized by Streaks, it's your own fault.

Aside from the broken LRMs which are getting fixed later today, SRM6s are by far the lamest weapons because of the ridiculous damage to heat ratio plus the fact ECM has no effect on them whatsoever.

SRMs require aiming, which means good piloting can mitigate them somewhat. SSRMs are only blocked by a feature present on 5 variants in the entire game, only one of which (the D-DC) I play, and the D-DC doesn't have to worry about Streaks.

We're talking about skill level requried for effective usage, either way. SSRMs have the lowest skill by far. Zero aiming, zero risk of missing or dealing less than full damage if they leave the tubes.