2002 replies to this topic

[Terran123rd]

I think Kerbal Space program is a good example of third person done right. You can play the game from an "outside" perspective, and, indeed, there are probably many people who never enter the cockpit. But playing in third person means you lack certain important information, like an accurate reading of how close you are to plowing into the ground, which you can only get by looking at a cockpit-view exclusive instrument.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Terran123rd, on 02 June 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

...playing in third person means you lack certain important information, like an accurate reading of how close you are to plowing into the ground, which you can only get by looking at a cockpit-view exclusive instrument.

Yeah, exactly.

If they did give access to an exploding HUD, then you'd either have to assign Keybinds to bring up specific HUD expandable elements, or create a function to unlock the Mouse from controlling your Mech to let it work like... a mouse... so you can click on buttons embedded in the HUD's primary layer (buttons that bring up other HUD elements).

The latter function would make you combat-inoperable while you're using the Mouse and checking the extra menus, but you might want these functions to be non-combat essential (to where you wouldn't be hard-pressed to check them them until you have the chance to get behind cover).

Edited by Prosperity Park, 02 June 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

Prosperity Park, on 02 June 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

"3rd person has no value to add to anything other than a tutorial."

Actually, it adds a new perspective to gameplay.​ When the Camera is positioned behind and above the Mech you're using, it greatly increases local situational awareness. It lets you see the shots that hit you, and from where. It lets you see more of the lasery explosiony-ness that's taking place. You see more of the game. Many, many people liked Mass Effect's 3rd person perspective, as an example.

__________________________________________________________


If they did implement 3rd person, it would create a situation where you'd lose the Data from your cockpit monitors. Right now they're just relegated to monitoring your heat Sink status and some ammo counts.. but once they get more usefulness, then the 3rdPerson HUD might need an additional togglable-layer, like a PiP that brings up the data currently displayed on physical monitors.

I recall form the Reboot Trailer that they tinkered with a HUD with expandable elements, like when the Pilot checks the Health of his Warhammer. That would probably be needed for 3rd person.

Yes if you read through what I said again, it was an evaluation of how 3rd person adds nothing to training grounds whatsoever, and how using it in a tutorial makes it counter-productive to what they should want to do, which is actually show people how to pilot and not rely on 3rd person to do it for them.

Basically, 3rd person, if added, will be in the game, and won't be just in training, as it adds absolutely nothing to you.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Coolant, on 29 May 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

You are listing only one of the reasons. According to Bryan in the first post:

Why add 3rd person? Reduces friction for non-MechWarrior players, non-core players, and expands the MWO market to a broader audience.

By now, every argument under the sun has been given against 3rd person being implemented. And, yet, the broader audience is out there, and one of the reasons 3rd person is being implemented is so MWO is more accessible to that audience. The argument, "just because there is a 3rd Person view available doesn't mean it will attract that audience", can be debated, but fact is, there is market for 3rd person games and PGI would be ignorant to ignore them. All previous Mechwarrior games had 3rd Person, so if you played them you were part of that audience.

Also, the argument that PGI said there would never be 3rd Person is ignorant. It's a business and businesses adapt or they bankrupt.

I just keep getting drawn into the discussion because of the absolutely ridiculous stubborness of some that would rather keep the game limited rather than have options. Oh, and the argument that options will split the user base to the point that the matchmaker won't be able to find games for 1st person players is ridiculous seeing as how certain polls show people are so adamant to play their 1st person that there will always be available players unless that poll wasn't accurate. And, that there are 10's of thousands playing at any one time means there are plenty of players period in the player pool, according to Bryan's Reddit interview:

"Q(nickrenfo2): Approximately how many games are being played at any given moment? Which 'mech seems to be the favorite? Which 'mechs die the most? Which 'mechs do the most damage on average per match? What kind of other interesting factoids might there be that you know of?
Bryan Ekman: I don't have all the number handy, but it's thousands (games). I'll have to do another stats post.

If thousands of games are being played at any given moment x~16 players, and conservatively saying thousands as just 2, that's 36000 players at any given time.

To address your first part here. most "Shooter" players play First Person shooters, IE shooters that are played from the eyes of the character you control. Mechwarrior is no different in this respect.

Ontop of that, CoD offered a 3rd person mode in many of the later games. Do you know what the LEAST PLAYED mode of CoD is? The 3rd person ones.

Was I part of the 3rd person audience in previous mechwarrior titles? I suppose in a way, yes. If a server offered the option to use it, I would. Why? Because it gave me increased battlefield awareness... increased FOV, and better ability to react to incomming threats. I quickly learned this was terrible and that I was hindering my own growth within the game because I was relying on the crutch of 3rd person to help me be a better player. I was also loosing immersion because I was playing from some mystical camera above my mech.

Yes there IS a market for 3rd person games. No Mechwarrior is not the place to quench that market's thirst. And believe me, no one who's willing to play mechwarrior, will play it because OMG IT HAS 3RD PERSON!!!!!!!~~~~~ *squee* No, they're going to play it because it's giant mechs blasting the holy living crap out of one another. No one I've talked to has said "Yeah I'd totally play that game IF it had 3rd person." And I'd gather anyone who DOES say that is trolling for a negative reaction.

Also I shouldn't be forced to go to FUSKING REDDIT to see crap the devs are posting, it should be posted RIGHT HERE ON THEIR OWN GOD DAMMNED WEBSITE!

Gremlich Johns, on 01 June 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

World of tanks is not a tank game, it is an imitation of a mech game on treads where one player controls the whole device. I have been a tank crewman and to operate a tank, you need a minimum of 3 crewman - the Tank commander, gunner and driver, assuming an autoloader. One could argue for two crewman if the Tank commander is also the gunner. But that would only work in platoons of tanks. Your field of view as an actual tank gunner is narrow - imagine looking through a telescope with a reticle (actually, that's exactly what one of the tank sights is, the other being a binocular periscope) 3PV is necessary in WOT because if it used 1PV, you could only see maybe 8-15 degrees of view.

Agreed, you want a tank game, Play ArmA II with ACE and ACER, and work with a full tank crew of 3+, a commander, a driver and a gunner... plus possible additional combat support. THAT is a tank game.

Edited by Jade Kitsune, 02 June 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Niko Snow, on 02 June 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

As has already been noted by several devs: 3PV is only going to be implemented on an optional basis. Players will not be forced or expected to join mixed games or 3PV only games. While we appreciate the concerns players have raised and factored these into how we will approach 3PV; As had already been stated: This is not a debate on the merits for those who already have no intention of playing 3PV but rather a discussion on how you feel it should look and work if you do intend to play some 3PV or Mixed matches. Please keep your discussion on topic to that regard.

Polls are great for some things but not others: Expecting people who haven't even signed up to the game yet to vote in an opinion poll here is an example situation of such.

Which lead's to the devs making mis-informed decisions about a "Non existant playerbase" that they THINK is out there, but really isn't.

There's not a market for this, and PGI is wasting time and resources to include a feature that will either see limited use, or will become the primarily played mode because it's "Back to business as usual" for the 3rd person mechwarrior crowd that just can't play without it because they're too limited on visibility from the cockpit, and can't see over obsticals.

Sure there might be a toggle, but there was a toggle in MW4, and the community was soo heavily split, that it was hard to get matches for those of us who like a more "Sim" experience.

But if you want to casualize it, fine, I can assure you you'll loose more players than you'll gain.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Niko Snow, on 02 June 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

As has already been noted by several devs: 3PV is only going to be implemented on an optional basis. Players will not be forced or expected to join mixed games or 3PV only games. While we appreciate the concerns players have raised and factored these into how we will approach 3PV; As had already been stated: This is not a debate on the merits for those who already have no intention of playing 3PV but rather a discussion on how you feel it should look and work if you do intend to play some 3PV or Mixed matches. Please keep your discussion on topic to that regard.

Polls are great for some things but not others: Expecting people who haven't even signed up to the game yet to vote in an opinion poll here is an example situation of such.

Sorry Niko but you are off the mark here, please read the original post, it says nothing about only being for those who will use it, it asks everyone how we think it should be implemented because we have no choice in the matter it's coming and that's final so we can debate the merrits of it all we want. There have been several good and game saving suggestions made in the first 40 pages, please tell us that they have actually been seen by Bryan and that he has taken notes. I put forward the Only in the Arena idea which is a place where you would expect to find a third person view just like football games in the US and it would also lend itself to a ladder league, recruit, regular, vetran, elite, and hero standings and allow for a buy-in champoinship showdowns every 6 months where the winner of the weight class gets to strutt with the champion title over their head. None of these suggestions, and I am good friends with several other posters (i'm in the same unit as Roadbeer) to the best of our knowledge have been reviewed or are being concidered, Could you please update us on the status of the reviews to our suggestions. and yes 3rd person view will do much more damage than good if it's not contained (kept server side for control)

[Aslena]

The way I would like to see 3rd person implemented is on a different game.

[CyBerkut]

Niko, or anyone on the Dev team,

What happens when a 1PV team and a 3PV team are supposed to fight over a planet, or whatever, in Community Warfare?

[Aslena]

How about putting a 3D display in one of the monitors or wherever of a person's mech showing how it is twisted.

[Belisarius1]

Niko Snow, on 02 June 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

As has already been noted by several devs: 3PV is only going to be implemented on an optional basis. Players will not be forced or expected to join mixed games or 3PV only games. While we appreciate the concerns players have raised and factored these into how we will approach 3PV; As had already been stated: This is not a debate on the merits for those who already have no intention of playing 3PV but rather a discussion on how you feel it should look and work if you do intend to play some 3PV or Mixed matches. Please keep your discussion on topic to that regard.

Polls are great for some things but not others: Expecting people who haven't even signed up to the game yet to vote in an opinion poll here is an example situation of such.

There's a very simple point that you guys don't seem to have realised.

If an objective/planet can be taken in FFP and lost in 3pv, the 3pv players are very much affecting the FFP players.

It is not sufficient to say "3pv is optional, so it won't affect you if you don't tick it," if the 3pv players interact in the same CW universe.

---

Edited by Belisarius1, 04 June 2013 - 04:32 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Belisarius1, on 04 June 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

There's a very simple point that you guys don't seem to have realised.

If an objective/planet can be taken in FFP and lost in 3pv, the 3pv players are very much affecting the FFP players.

What makes you think they haven't realized this? I mean, they are the ones making this Social Meta game, and they have most certainly realized that. I think people should chill-out a little bit here, since the majority of posts in this thread are just along the lines of "3PV will ruin this game by shattering the player base."

There are some good suggestions here, too... so i am gong to please ask that people post only how they think 3rd person should be implemented, like Niko asked. I admit that I did post in the argument about pro/anti 3rd person, but that debate isn't really for this thread. This thread is supposed to be, at this time, a discussion about how to implement it.

So, please post your suggestions here.. Please don't post the suggestion of "remove 3PV," though... as that really won't help anything.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 04 June 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[Modo44]

I could see a 3rd person mode after you die, provided it disables the chat, so you can not provide team mates with unfair information from your point of view. Having it directly during fights would make a lot of piloting skills irrelevant, creating an entirely different game.

Prosperity Park, on 01 June 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

The Devs have said that you'll be able to choose your opponents in terms of their 1st/3rd person perspectives.

Thus splitting the audience, and in the long term, effectively killing whichever mode remains less liked. Brilliant.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

I already posted in other tread that MWO will die for me on the day 3pv implemented.
So ill try to explain myself. Simply put 3pv is a built in cheat, that allows to peek over obstacles or corners, gives immensely bigger FOV especially for smaller mechs and so on, no matter what u implement to reduce this, so its probably worse for sniping (if u disable any kind of zoom in 3pv) but its better at anything else, and if u want to split ur player base there will be anyway "1pv" players who will find a way to use 3pv in only 1pv games so basically get unfair advantage over other players who plays honest 1pv. Also 3pv allows much easier to determine a line of fire for ur mech, thing that take some time for every new chassis u obtain.
And its basically ruins that feeling of riding "real" battlemech, so ALOT of people will be scared away from urs product as soon as they see any glimpse of 3pv, if u though there will be 3pv year ago i wouldnt even bother myself w regging myself here.
So please dear dev team RECONSIDER, leave 3pv for spectrator only.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

Prosperity Park, on 04 June 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

So, please post your suggestions here.. Please don't post the suggestion of "remove 3PV," though... as that really won't help anything.

it will if developers and more importantly producers will realize that 3pv doesn't needed here (which i think very unlikely to happen)
so my suggestion leave 3pv for spectrator mode only, any other way it will be used as unfair advantage.
and about 3pv more popular in eu, i don't know what's that mean at all, i consider MWO FPS w elements of battlemech simulation. FPS called this because it is first person shooter and people who play those LOVE to shoot things from first person view not 3rd, there is third person shooter genre for this and those genre have immense game play differences those are not limited to camera position.
So trying hit two DIFFERENT birds w one stone isn't smartest idea since 500 years BC for sure.

Edited by BigMekkUrDakka, 04 June 2013 - 10:00 AM.

[Coolant]

really glad to hear 3rd Person going into testing (no sarcasm). I will play in 3rd Person as much as possible and will only play 1st Person if the majority of players in my unit are playing 1st Person. If I PUG will most certainly play 3rd Person.

[Agent CraZy DiP]

FoV should pull-in when you look up or down, as well as left and right. Preventative to exploiting.

[CyBerkut]

Prosperity Park, on 04 June 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

What makes you think they haven't realized this? I mean, they are the ones making this Social Meta game, and they have most certainly realized that. I think people should chill-out a little bit here, since the majority of posts in this thread are just along the lines of "3PV will ruin this game by shattering the player base."

Belisarius1 will have to speak for himself on that one. I'm not assuming one way or the other as to whether they realized the problem created by deciding to have 1PV and 3PV in the same CW universe.

My concern remains that the devs have not indicated how they expect a 1PV team vs 3PV team battle in CW over some location is going to work in a manner consistent with their claim that if you play 1PV, you'll never have to play against 3PV players.

Their silence to date may indicate that they fully realize the problem created by the announced decision... and haven't arrived at a solution. Or, that the solution is likely to be unpalatable to enough people that they would rather delay announcing it.

I'm not in the 'shatter the player base' crowd. I suspect there will be enough players in both camps, and if it turns out there are not, then PGI will have to make the logical choices. But then, we make choices, too.

Quote

There are some good suggestions here, too... so i am gong to please ask that people post only how they think 3rd person should be implemented, like Niko asked. I admit that I did post in the argument about pro/anti 3rd person, but that debate isn't really for this thread. This thread is supposed to be, at this time, a discussion about how to implement it.

So, please post your suggestions here.. Please don't post the suggestion of "remove 3PV," though... as that really won't help anything.

My implementation suggestions have been the following, for quite some time now.

- 3PV and 1PV should be kept separate. Completely separate. That means either, no 3PV in Community Warfare (which appears to have be removed from consideration), or to give 3PV a separate CW Universe. That removes the ability for any team to attempt to use another team's PoV preferences to their advantage/disadvantage. In planetary league style competition, teams WILL attempt to exploit that if 3PV and 1PV are put together into the same universe.

- As above, no 3PV spectator mode for 1PV games that are still in progress. Disabling in game text chat will not stop teams on TS3, Ventrilo, Mumble, etc. from having dead pilots relaying information to live pilots.

- If/when a replay mode becomes available where pilots can view the action from a completed match... Sure, make 3PV available to the replay mode. No harm done there, and it will make it easier for the machinema movie makers, and people who want to admire their skins and paint jobs.

[Jestun]

Prosperity Park, on 04 June 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

What makes you think they haven't realized this? I mean, they are the ones making this Social Meta game, and they have most certainly realized that. I think people should chill-out a little bit here, since the majority of posts in this thread are just along the lines of "3PV will ruin this game by shattering the player base."

There are some good suggestions here, too... so i am gong to please ask that people post only how they think 3rd person should be implemented, like Niko asked. I admit that I did post in the argument about pro/anti 3rd person, but that debate isn't really for this thread. This thread is supposed to be, at this time, a discussion about how to implement it.

So, please post your suggestions here.. Please don't post the suggestion of "remove 3PV," though... as that really won't help anything.

1. See my sig, a quote from Smedly, the CEO of SoE talking about the New Game Experience for SWG. He knows better than most what ignoring your players and thinking you know best leads to. Radical changes to alienate the existing playerbase in the hopes that it will make the game appeal to the mass market? Yeah, that always works out so well... everyone loves a sell out!

2. Where exactly can we discuss the merits / drawbacks of 3rd person? With the lack of a general discussion forum the viewpoint doesn't fit into any of the existing forums. I gave this example of a topic which doesn't fit into the new forum structure multiple times in the discussions on those changes and it still applies now. To my knowledge there is no rules in the forum rules stating that the merits / drawbacks of 3rd person can't be discussed but I'm not sure where it should be discussed.

:edit:

3. It's PGI's plan to split the playerbase based on this (although no mention of how CW will be handled yet), so concerns that this will shatter the playerbase are perfectly justified. This is on top of the additional splits which are coming in the form of regional servers and quick matches vs. CW.

Edited by Jestun, 04 June 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Perhaps the view could come from the point of view of the UAV - it would require the UAV module (and would have all the strengths and weaknesses thereof) and would be limited to a top-down view (usable for navigating around obstacles, but far less so for ranged combat)?

[Armageddon]

I'm really looking forward to 3rd Person mode. I had originally bought a Legendary Founders Package but ended up deciding against it when 3rd person view was not included. When 3rd person view is introduced I will be coming back to MWO and spending LOTS and LOTS of money. Thank you PGI!