2002 replies to this topic

[Roland Verliden]

DrBunji, on 22 March 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

But that doesnt work ffs, cause here I am behind this hill, switch to third so I can see whats going on, oh here comes a hunchback all alone, ill just wait till he turns his back... there, now switch back and dakka dakka.

3pv is DOA

I think that depends on where you place the camera. Again, if we're to put forth ideas based on the premise of this helping players who can't otherwise figure out the torso system, we could potentially place the camera so that it isn't over the 'mech's head or something like that.

EDIT: Come to think of it, what would work better: if the camera was locked to the torso, or the legs?

Edited by Roland Verliden, 22 March 2013 - 02:22 PM.

[EvilCow]

A possible option would be to place the camera in between legs, just under the torso and forward facing. This would prevent abuse of the external view and give players an innovative point of view of the fight.

[raygun]

Matt Newman, on 22 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I see your point you feel lied too. The truth is that was the position at that time.

What I am asking you to understand is there are people who would like to play the game another way.
I personally like 3rd person games and will play it in our game as a fun alternative I still think our game will be best played in first person. I believe the best games give players the option to play they way they want. Were going to do our best to keep fun and fair for everyone.

Matt

I disagree, some of the most legendary and influential games for myself have been the ones with singular vision and focus. Limitations and restrictions on the player, when appropriate, provide a tone and feeling that cannot be conveyed in any other way; specifically being stuck in a cockpit of a giant stompy robot. In addition, restrictions can spurn the player to creative and innovative usage of the tools provided by the developer.

Now, would enabling a different type of perspective hamper my personal enjoyment of the game? in the long run, probably not; however, I believe it would go against the spirit of the game's current incarnation unless appropriate restrictions were in place.

such as:

• a uav module being equipped
  
• command console equipped with a satellite view or some such (im not quite up to speed on my BT/MW equipment knowledge)
  
• spectator mode
  
• popping the cockpit in-game with all the vulnerabilities that would entail
  
• limited to training grounds

another thing I have mentioned previously, if you give the existing core players the right tools, we will attract more long term and dedicated players that will then, in turn create more player made content for you which will attract more players, etc, etc. things like the metagame(CW), in-game comms, in-game clans/groups, a lobby system, a way to review matches without the need of third party software, decal creation tools.

Ill end on this last thought, segregating a player base any more than is nessesary is not the way to build a community.

[Rashhaverak]

I would agree that 3rd person viewing provides some visibility advantage over 1st person, but I question that the 3rd person view advantage would be significantly game altering. The best way to test it is to implement the view and actually play with it and against it. There is no sense crying doom before having an opportunity to see how it would function.

Perhaps there is a good chance that the hard core players would play with the first person and the less hard core would play with the third person. Since the hard core gamers are likely of a higher skill level, the first person view players may very well dominate over the third person players. Having played both types, I can say that I find the assumption that the use of third person is breaking is questionable.

The win/loss and K/D statistics will tell pretty quickly if the advantage is significant.

As far as implementation plans, I would suggest that the view be locked to a single view, very forward looking, right or left side over the mech's shoulder (looking just past the ear, if it were to have one), and with just enough space behind to see the mech's feet. Third and first person view should not be interchangeable. Once you pick it, that's what your stuck with for the game. The HUD display would be superimposed over the view. The ability to free look left and right should be removed, as that would provide a huge visibility advantage over what is already provided by 3rd person.

The shake, smoke and obscuring of vision during combat it the biggest issue that I can see with the 3rd person view (other than the ability to see over hills and past hills, which is why the view should be forward and as flat as possible past the ear.) The screen should still shake similar to in the cockpit, or at least the targeting reticule should still shake. Visibility through smoke and flames is something I'm not sure you can reproduce for the 3rd person, so that might just be an advantage that can't be mitigated.

[SilentSooYun]

3rd person should be limited to Training Grounds only.

That being said, you should also expand Training Grounds to accept groups of players with the understanding that there is no reward nor penalty ("What happens in Training Grounds, stays in Training Grounds"). Good for mentor training, practicing group tactics, team-building exercises, and movie making.

If 3rd person is to be allowed in an actual match environment, XP/C-bill rewards should be extremely curtailed. 3rd person, by your own point of view, is a crutch to new players. They shouldn't be punished, per se, but neither should they have full marks until they ditch the "training wheels".

[Targetloc]

I feel like this push for 3rd person is based on their statistics for new player retention since open beta. (ie, doesn't include Founders who are mostly experienced mech pilots).


Mechs are kind of hard to learn. Especially when you're tossed in with veterans with custom builds and 10,000 hours of experience.


I think they need to work very, very hard on their new player experience, but there has to be better ways to teach new players "how to legs" without bringing in something as divisive as 3rd person.

[krash27]

Willie Sauerland, on 22 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Not really.

That big red box

pretty much tells you

all you need to know...

I can't believe we have to spell it out and you couldn't see this yourself. IF you have no line of sight there is no red box, but wait, with 3PV you can see over the hill blocking LOS giving the poptarts the advantage of lining up on target before jumping.
This is exactly how MW4 went.

[Willie Sauerland]

krash27, on 22 March 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

I can't believe we have to spell it out and you couldn't see this yourself. IF you have no line of sight there is no red box, but wait, with 3PV you can see over the hill blocking LOS giving the poptarts the advantage of lining up on target before jumping.
This is exactly how MW4 went.

I guess nobody

scouts or locks targets

in this game anymore...

Or you guys

have not seen

successful poptarting yet.

You will even before

3rd person view comes out

as it already exists,

even if you don't want to believe it.

[Jabilo]

Shively, on 22 March 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Boy, have I got a bridge to sell you. These developers can't even properly balance the same weapons that've been ingame for months. Have you been asleep all week, sir? You think they can handle an entire new view mode?

Ridiculous.

Yes, well, fingers crossed, stiff upper lip and hope for the best I guess.

It's coming and there is nothing we can do about it so we might as well offer implementation ideas and hope they take some on board.

[Falconic]

I'm fine with a 3rd person option. I don't like how I think you are going to implement it. If it is a hard set option that you can not toggle. I don't like it. I don't think that you should be able to exclude 1st or 3rd person players from your games (still this is a hard set 1st/3rd person option... Which I don't want). Toggling into 3rd person to look at your mech or see what you are stuck on is a good option to have. I believe this was implemented in one of the other games.

I don't see advantages or disadvantages to having or not having it... I think having a toggle removes the issue of people saying one is stronger than the other because it is always there for you to switch to.

Personally I like being in the cockpit. I think it was easier to aim in and I don't like thinking I am viewing myself outside my body from a dragonfly drone following my mech.

[Hoser003]

My concern is, as previously mentioned, the further splitting for match finding. Another concern is the 3PV over all view of the battle. If I am running in 3PV, then I will have the ability to look around corners and over hills by simply positioning my mech close to that area and letting my camera view peek around. This can only be prevented by having the camera right up my mech's "hind-quarters" so to speak. And that would block their view so bad they couldn't play. Another concern with 3PV is that they will have a 360 degree field of view, no matter how small it may be, they will still have it. If some one in 1PV gets shot in the back and they aren't paying attention to their HUD, they don't know. In 3PV, you will SEE the shots and know where it's coming from. Community Warfare is another big concern as well. If there HAS to be a 3PV, then I would limit it to Training Ground only.

[ryoma]

Paul I have a quick question directed at you.

Do you guarantee that first person players will never have to play with third person players if they choose not to? I want to see a promise from you that we wont have to play with third person players. Right now people are very suspicious that a few months down the line of 3rd person view you will merge queues to eliminate the split. What is your opinion on that view of the company?

[Deraxio]

coming 3rd person ---->R.I.P MWO

[Eddrick]

Best way I can think of to inplement 3rd person view without splitting the community: DO not display the HUD (Heads Up Display) in 3rd person view.

Otherwise, it would give them a very clear advantage and should be seperated from the people that want to only use 1st person view. If this is a must. I can't help. But, you have plenty of examples of what it could be like. Armored Core is a good one.

I suppose a compremize could be to display both views at the same time in a PIP like in ChromeHounds and let them freely swich between the two. But, that still breaks the simulation.

[krash27]

Willie Sauerland, on 22 March 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

I guess nobody

scouts or locks targets

in this game anymore...

Or you guys

have not seen

successful poptarting yet.

You will even before

3rd person view comes out

as it already exists,

even if you don't want to believe it.

We know it exists now and they are easy to deal with, they pop once you move to the side which gives you a second to tag them when they try again as they have to jump high enough to line up their target, you wait and see how much worse it can get. Now they have to jump with enough height to line up their target, with 3PV they will line up target before jumping, jump just enough to clear the hill with weapons leaving little to no chance of counter fire.

I have NEVER been in a game where EVERY mech is visible at ALL times because there is a spotter on EVERY mech in EVERY game.

Oh and by the way, most poptarters are doing this at range where there most likely will be no red box. As was stated before ECM and LOS will mean nothing with 3PV.
Unlike you, I have seen it in this game and other MW games.

I would like to play in this magical MWO game you play in where everyone has a target box at all times. Or are you running 3rd party software if you have all mechs painted at all times?

[Deraxio]

3.Pov------>R.I.P MWO for me

[Shively]

A compromise -

Implement third-person view mode as something usable for testing in Training Grounds.

In addition, implement third-person in matches in the following manner:

As a consumable item. Create some sort of camera drone that tails your 'mech for 20~30s, allowing you to see a view of it from the rear, once per battle.

In this manner, splitting the community wouldn't even be a necessity.

[Ozric]

So, I had an idea. It's not a good one, but as there are no good ideas it's good enough to post here.

Enhanced Imaging! (2:14)


A toggle ability that switches the camera to 3rd person view and changes the landscape to a more artificial look. You could use it to see the terrain around you, and your own team (neon blue), but only enemies targeted or in LOS would be visible (neon red). Lessens some evils, but some remain untouched. Oh I don't know why I'm trying to justify it, its a terrible idea. At least I could talk in a comedy Nicolai Malthus voice.



But there is one more thing I was wondering...

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

• It is possible 3rd person will be made available in other regions first. Typically 3rd person is more widely used outside of North America.

As a European, the spiritual home of 'that's a bit too realistic to be fun' simulation games, I know you don't mean us. So can we assume your talking about Asia? And if this the first salvo in an Asian marketing campaign, hence the irrelevance of the current communities opinion, what else have we got to look forward too? Anime chicks and chibi Vegeta bobbleheads?




Actually, I totally want anime chicks and chibi Vegeta bobbleheads...

Edited by Ozric, 22 March 2013 - 03:43 PM.

[AceTimberwolf]

It is fine to bring in 3rd Person outside of the MWO experience but not to be integrated with MWO proper. If a player would like to participate in Community Warfare then they are required to engage enemies in First Person. Though if and when we have Solaris we can play in either 1st or 3rd tho I would prefer to play in 1st. Practice Matches could be played in 3rd while only stat and CW matches will only be counted during 1st person play. The point is to drive the people who are not Familiar with 1st person or uncomfortable to play in 1st person to the Core experience.

I believe clearly defining what the CORE experience is will greatly reduce the friction that 3rd person creates.
What the CORE should be is:
1st Person
Community Warfare
Perpetual World where you contribute to Change
Stat Tracking
Etc(can be more defined later on)

Let us as a Community and you as the Developer do a Mental Reset and Settle on what the Future of MWO is as of now. There is, in my opinion, too much focus on externalities(Economic Example which by instead of getting what originally the fundamentals were down. It creates a negative externality IE: Pollution created by focusing on a new feature when old features are not finalized or fully conceputalized). Perhaps instead of focusing too much on 3rd person and the like try to get other things settled first and it might entice players to forget about doing 3rd person right now. If resources are being taken out of developing core experience then we must reevaluate what PGIs Vision is for MWO

Edited by AceTimberwolf, 23 March 2013 - 02:14 AM.

[benth]

krash27, on 22 March 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Do we not learn from history?

PGI doesn't need history because that was then and this is now.

The truth is that was the position at the time.