2001 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Im sorry, what was that? All I see is

Quote

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Pando. View it anyway?

lol

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 24 March 2013 - 03:15 AM.

[Ozric]

ryoma, on 24 March 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

I think that instead of separate queues PGI should make CW 1PV only and make all other game types mixed.

This is pretty much my thinking as well, as much as I hate to say it. If CW stays 1PV, and there is no 3PV galaxy map to split the community up further, then the fundamental ethos of MWO may remain as it was.

I don't think we can entirely avoid the split queues whatever we do, because you will need 1PV only PUG games for the 1PV CW people that want to practice and things. We might be able to do without a 3PV only queue though, and just have a mixed view mode where everyone would just assume that everyone else was using 3PV.

[Bromineberry]

What about making 3rd person an item? You can equip the "3rd person drone" for 1ton/1crit. A small drone starts automatically at the game start. It hovers somewhere behind the mech and gives the pilot a small 3rd person view in the top left corner, the same size as the paperdolls.
[There could be an optional function that enlarges the 3rd person view, like you're able to do with the minimap. The enlarged 3rd person view would be without any hud, it'll be only the picture the drone sends.]

+ You get 3rd person but only for orientation, nothing more
[+ You can spot enemies with it and tell your comrades where they are. No locking on target]
- You need to invest 1ton and 1crit (or more less, just an example). Maybe the system is even only installable in head/torso.
- Enemys will be able to spot your drone if you hide behind something. If you can see them with the drone, they can see it also.

Wouldn't that be an acceptable compromise? No splitting the playerbase, everyone who needs 3rd person for orientation can get it, but with some drawbacks and it wouldn't be that helpfull for poptarts.

Edited by Bromineberry, 24 March 2013 - 04:11 AM.

[Selbatrim]

I just have to say I come from outside North America and I do not prefer 3rd person. Where did they get that one by the way? More likely reason: We'll annoy people from outside North America first since we're not from there ourselves.

[Muffinator]

Paul Inouye, on 22 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

One poster mentioned something that I thought was more than fair. List some of the ideas we've been toying with in order for it to work.

These are just SOME of the ideas we've been discussing:

• Camera is locked horizontally to the torso. This is not a peek around corners mode.
  
• Camera is locked vertically to the torso, you can only look up and down as far as your torso can.
  
• When approaching cover (to rocks/building etc), the camera pulls IN so FoV is greatly reduced when standing close to something.
  
• 3rd Person is not a free-cam.
  
• HUD will be significantly reduced if not completely removed.
  
• LOS targetting is NOT affected by 3rd person. If you cannot target it from 1st person, you cannot target it in 3rd.
  
• ONLY the targeted enemy (Press R) can be identified in 3rd person... all other HUD indicators are turned off.

Again, these are a few of the ideas we're working on. Please keep that in mind when posting.

Seriously, don't gimp it. Add 3rd person like every other game and everyone except the most bearded grognards will love it. If you're giving the option to drop in non 3rd person view why does it matter? (I think separate queues is also overkill btw).

I can understand a lot of the complaints about a lot of things in this game but 3POV is not one of them. It will rule. Make it as flexible as possible so I can watch my stompy robot in his blinged out paint job charging over a hill with guns blazing and shoot videos of it and put them on youtube and attract hundreds more players for you.

[RedDragon]

Muffinator, on 24 March 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

Seriously, don't gimp it. Add 3rd person like every other game and everyone except the most bearded grognards will love it. If you're giving the option to drop in non 3rd person view why does it matter? (I think separate queues is also overkill btw).

I can understand a lot of the complaints about a lot of things in this game but 3POV is not one of them. It will rule. Make it as flexible as possible so I can watch my stompy robot in his blinged out paint job charging over a hill with guns blazing and shoot videos of it and put them on youtube and attract hundreds more players for you.

So you think it would rule that you constantly get harassed by jump-snipers you can't see because they are behind a hill but they can certainly see you because of 3rd-person view, so they can just pop up, shoot and fall back down before you even notice? Or that people can see around corners and behind their backs, making every form of ambush impossible?

[Quxudica]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

This thread is not about whether or not 3rd person should it exist. Rather, we want your feedback on how it should be implemented. Understand we're not debating the merits of having 3rd person or not.

It shouldn't be. I think the 5,000+ No votes in that old thread would have been enough feedback on this.

[El Death Smurf]

if, perchance, this post can stand out in the muddle, i was going to bed and thinkging about 3rd person view, and getting shivvers about jump sniping Cataphracts, and the Pink Highlander, when i realized, all you would have to do is
1) keep the camera low, and provide lag, so that it won't rise with the mech, and re adjust only once the mech landed. (neutering poptarts, and making JJ for manuvering only while in 3rd person)
2) make it a menu option, not a key you press, so that you can not spot over the shoulder, jump and press said button, and take your shot.

if you could do just that, in addtion to what you already promised, i will be as happy as pie wait... people eat pie....

Edited by El Death Smurf, 24 March 2013 - 05:56 AM.

[Alex Wolfe]

"Accessibility" and "broader audience" are words which must be like the sweetest nectar for the investors.

Sure, making compromises and disregarding the fanbase you already have, trying to get people otherwise uninterested in the subject matter on board is undoubtedly a great idea. Just look how well it's been working out for EA, their sales and stocks tanking and CEO resigning, even with all the accessibility and audience broadening the money can buy.

Coolant, initial draft of superior MC consumables, concrete plans to add 3rd person, promises broken one after another... I'm sad to see how willing you seem to be to put all your work to the torch these days. The man who chases two audiences catches neither.

[Nonsense]

Muffinator, on 24 March 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

I can understand a lot of the complaints about a lot of things in this game but 3POV is not one of them. It will rule. Make it as flexible as possible so I can watch my stompy robot in his blinged out paint job charging over a hill with guns blazing and shoot videos of it and put them on youtube and attract hundreds more players for you.

Yeah, bring this game down hard and fast. Bring in all the flavor of the month players and alienate your hardcore fan base so you can have some short term gains. WOO BABY.

The point is, if 3PV is better than FPV, people generally won't use FPV. Same reason they're changing the vision modes...currently nobody uses night vision because it sucks and people use heat vision constantly because it's almost always better than normal vision (or at least it was before the last hotfix that implemented the unfinished modes). Why bother designing fancy cockpits for each mech if nobody's going to play from that view? Why bother designing fancy looking mechs if everyone's going to view them in blue heat mode only?

[MCXL]

Banditman, on 21 March 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

I honestly believe you are creating more problems than you are solving by adding 3rd person. If you want to draw players in, you need competition, real, honest competition. Right now you have Counterstrike with mechs and no ability for the community to create it's own competition. I think that should be your focus.

This is key.

[MCXL]

Also wanted to add that looking at the free to play giant League of Legends, there is a bit of an analogue.

What if league allowed you to zoom out more? Functionally it would have a similar effect to changing to third person.

Putting aside the fact that it is a bannable offense because it is a competitive advantage, it would make the game easier to play for casual players. The camera is relatively claustrophobic for a RTS type experience, and it can be difficult to maintain good visual contact and situational awareness. That must be why League of Legends has struggled to find a casual userbase...

Oh wait.

The lack of a broader view, or E-Z view, has not hurt the game's popularity in the least.

Now I'm not 100% against 3rd person view. But I am against it in ANY sort of competitive environment. That means NO in community warfare, NO in these weekend tournaments, and NO in anything that gets tracked by stats. I hope once the community warfare starts to drop, pub games will feel much less important, and no longer matter for personal statistics. Then maybe it could be added as a separate game mode, or if there are no pub stats, let it run free there.

Edited by MCXL, 24 March 2013 - 07:38 AM.

[Easyvue]

I like the idea of a 3rd person view that only looks from the forward facing back so you can only see the front of your mech. It's the next best thing to a rear view camera and a chance to check out your mechs paint job.

[ToxinTractor]

MCXL, on 24 March 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

This is key.

Now you see tho man, Hawken is more counter strike with mechs, or even UT3 with mechs for that matter. This is not a game which can fit in either of those brackets because it is so slow and when you do some thing wrong your skill cant persay always carry you out of a bad situation. This game and mechwarrior in general is pretty punishing..

The fact that this game is a slow game with big stompy robots that take many shots to kill in one location and that one location isnt a kill some times if you dont hit the center torso or the head. Will put this game more towards World of Tanks which has been for a longer time but even then when you shoot some one a large amount of the time it will "drain" there health pool. And there is only the one health pool you need to worry about. In MWO there can easily be up to 8 excluding back armour.

[Joseph Mallan]

Pando, on 24 March 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

Look, stop with your ********. I don't sit around and read everything the developers say. If segregation IS/WAS a concern, obviously it was dealt with on some level before this post was created. You want my answer why I think ONLY number one...back up real quick I think they will ALL be implemented. I just commented on what I want specifically. You're reading to much into what you perceive I don't want. I don't have a problem with any of it. I gave my feedback as requested by the OP.



As Mr. Ekman stated this thread is NOT to debate 3pV it's to provide "how you would like to see it implemented." If you're not contributing to that, **** of the thread.

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

You will have the following options as a player:
•Play against 1st and 3rd person players.
•Play against 3rd person players only.
•Play against 1st person players only.
•Players can set their preference in the options menu, or during the launch phase before matchmaking.

It seems the general consensus would be we prefer to see it implemented in a different game all together.

I am still trying to understand why we are trying to

Quote

Reduces friction for non-MechWarrior players

That is quite important, if they are not playing MWO how do they know they want 3PV? Do we change the rules of Chess because Checker players don't like the rules???

To paraphrase Nick Fury:

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I recognize the DEVs have made a decision, but given that it's a stupid-ash decision, I've elected to question it.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 March 2013 - 07:55 AM.

[Krell Darkmoon]

Regional - North America + Europe + Australia/Asia
View Style - 1st Person only + 1st n 3rd Person + 3rd Person Only

So the "solution" is to divide the player base as much as possible?

NA - 1st only
NA - 3rd only
NA - 1st n 3rd
EU - 1st only
EU - 3rd only
EU - 1st n 3rd
AU - 1st only
AU - 3rd only
AU - 1st n 3rd

Won't this make it take even LONGER to find a Match

How can this possibly help New people if it takes them 30minutes to find a Match to "learn" in......

If 3rd person is supposed to help new people learn to drive their Mech, why wasn't a Tutorial thought of/made instead?

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Mao of DC, on 24 March 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

I understand your positon entrirely and agree with it. But I am hopeing we can try to get them to make 3rd person as restrictive as we can. Since it seems they are going to put it in anyway. By giveing 1st person view a tactical advangage most people will fight only in 1st person and make 3rd person usless really. If more people added actual feeback about how we can do this, and less posts that only say "I dont want 3rd person" they might listen to us. Besides there is a whole other thread for the "I don't want" posts.
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

I'm not sure why you'd advocate this. If it is balanced, provides no competitive advantage, then there really should be no concern at all. Period. Aside from the standard douchbaggery that goes on in all gaming where some players want to dictate that everyone plays the same way they do. To agitate for putting either view mode at a competitive disadvantage is well... (apologies I hate making generalizations) Its acting like a spiteful child.

If we strip all the emo out of this conversation the only rational part of the discussion remains : What is required to ensure that 3pv does not ad a competitive advantage.

Option 1: Limit what the client renders in 3pv to what would be rendered in 1pv. I'm not sure this is possible but if it is it would be the most elegant solution.

Option 2: Find a way to buff visibility and more options for 1pv such that a 1pv player has easy access to the same information as a 3pv player. I'm not sure what forms this would take exactly. They could do some sort of ghosting that would give the same info as whatever amount of peeking 3pv would gain. As far as mechs sneaking up behind each other... c'mon wtf?! Its ludicrous that we dont have access to 360 degree visual information around our mechs.. my mother has that in her car now FFS.

Option 3: Accept that 3pv adds a competitive advantage and balance that with some drawbacks to running 3pv or alternate buffs that only work in fpv

[Alois Hammer]

Mystere, on 23 March 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

I call that a simplistic implementation of 3rd person view (i.e. really bad).

I call it "MWO: The money-man's vision of the game's future."

(Only reason that's not this game's future: CryEngine can't do PIP half that well. )

[Kasechemui]

I'm not a fan of it but maybe you could implement it on a way, that the Information is still gathered by 1st person?
So the player gets the same battleinformation as if he plays 1st person?

I think thats the biggest point aginst 3rd person. That you will be abeled to spot targets you won't see in 1st person.

I think they've done it this way in world of tanks.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

CheeseThief, on 23 March 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Firstly the attempt to appease the whiners by segregating the community into a million tiny little bits is the stupidest idea I've heard in a while.


Secondly, how robust is the lighting engine?

A way to do 3rd person fairly would be to add a 'vision' light or something similar to the cockpit, and when in 3rd person making enemy mechs invisible unless 'illuminated' by this vision light. Terrain and buildings stop the light, but not trees or bases. Optimistically doing it with the lighting engine would let the game illuminate the pair of Jagermech arms poking over the hill instead of going 'Ahah, Vision point! Thy mech is now relieved!", but vision points would probably be a lot easier. Also the lighting engine lets the client do it instead of adding more load to the server.


I am in support of 3rd person so long as it doesn't give any awareness advantages over 1st person. I want to be able to flip to 3rd person and oogle my mech and check possible lines of sight on it but I don't want to have to constantly flick between 1st and 3rd for situational awareness nor do I want to have the community chopped into hundreds of little bits by 10+ matchmaking pools.

This is a great idea!