2001 replies to this topic

[Pinselborste]

Dustein, on 25 March 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

My feedback:

Opening up the franchise to Non-MW and Non-Core players they way MeachAssault did, did NOT garner more money, in fact it lost so much money that Microsoft SOLD THE RIGHTS.

it was one of the most played xbox live games, the myth that it lost money is just brought up by tt purists who cant believe that something is succsessfull that doesnt use TT rules.

[Heeden]

Mystere, on 25 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

Unfortunately, the link does not go to your earlier post.

That was a bad link *smack link's nose*, naughty link.

Let's try this old-school,
http://mwomercs.com/...11#entry2121011

[Mystere]

Kraven Kor, on 25 March 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Even without a HUD, just visual confirmation from being able to "look over hills" and "see around corners" is a huge advantage, a huge problem, and the largest part of most of our concerns.

Then one of the design goals should be to remove such abilities (i.e. render in 3PV only what can be seen in 1PV --- aka. visual/sensor parity).

[EvilCow]

Mystere, on 25 March 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Then one of the design goals should be to remove such abilities (i.e. render in 3PV only what can be seen in 1PV --- aka. visual/sensor parity).

Then they would complain about mechs appearing/disappearing for no evident reason.

[van Uber]

Mystere, on 25 March 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Then one of the design goals should be to remove such abilities (i.e. render in 3PV only what can be seen in 1PV --- aka. visual/sensor parity).

What ends up to be the point of 3PV in this case? Better understanding of torso-position relative to legs? Can't this type of information be delivered within the Mech itself in 1PV?

[zraven7]

Aw, )&*((*)&*(^$(*@()*&$, _$&*()(&*, $(*^@*&^$%)(*^#(^@@(*_&$)(&*^@)*&^! AAAAAHHHH!!!!...

...

...I respectfully disagree with your decision to include third-person viewpoint options into the game.

[Kraven Kor]

Heeden, on 25 March 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

I don't see why performance should take a hit there. It already checks line-of-sight to see if you can target the mech, that same check can be used for rendering (if they go with a "no peaking" policy).

To continue my earlier post here, which managed to stay on-topic rather than trolling/being trolled/whatever the hell this thread has degenerated in to; I'd have the Arcade/Simulator mode restricting mech visibility so they are only rendered when a LoS check is passed, but the Holo Display could/should allow any mech the camera can see to be visible. That would differentiate 3rd-person-only mode from 1st-and-3rd in an interesting way.



An advantage yes, but it's only a problem if only one side has that advantage and/or the other side is unaware. Two consenting mech warriors should be able to play with each other however they like and adding options for different ways to play can make for a nice change from the main game mode.

Edited to fix link.

Mystere, on 25 March 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Then one of the design goals should be to remove such abilities (i.e. render in 3PV only what can be seen in 1PV --- aka. visual/sensor parity).

And so long as they do that right, then I won't complain (much.)

[LordBraxton]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

This thread is not about whether or not 3rd person should it exist. Rather, we want your feedback on how it should be implemented. Understand we're not debating the merits of having 3rd person or not.

LOL WHAT HAPPENED TO PAULS COMMENT IN MY SIGNATURE?

THIS IS PURE DISHONESTY TO A POINT WHERE ALL CAPS WERE REQUIRED

zraven7, on 25 March 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Aw, )&*((*)&*(^$(*@()*&$, _$&*()(&*, $(*^@*&^$%)(*^#(^@@(*_&$)(&*^@)*&^! AAAAAHHHH!!!!...

...

...I respectfully disagree with your decision to include third-person viewpoint options into the game.

no respect here, I was promised a 1st person only game and thats what I payed ~$100 for

[Alienfreak]

van Uber, on 25 March 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

What ends up to be the point of 3PV in this case? Better understanding of torso-position relative to legs? Can't this type of information be delivered within the Mech itself in 1PV?

I don't wanna break this for the Devs.
But:
- In the upper Bar of your HUD you have two triangles representing the position of your Torso to your legs. It even shows the degrees it is off!
- The Minimap displays this also.

[Roadbeer]

LordBraxton, on 25 March 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

no respect here, I was promised a 1st person only game and thats what I payed ~$100 for

This is a little disingenuous of ALL the games around, the sole reason you bought in to this game was that it was 1PV? Not the concept, genre or aesthetics? The ONLY reason you bought in was because it was first person?

Look, I've made my point clear of how vehemently I'm against 3PV, but seriously people...

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadbeer, on 25 March 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

This is a little disingenuous of ALL the games around, the sole reason you bought in to this game was that it was 1PV? Not the concept, genre or aesthetics? The ONLY reason you bought in was because it was first person?

Look, I've made my point clear of how vehemently I'm against 3PV, but seriously people...

I bought in cause it was a way to support the BattleTech property. To me MechWarrior is just an extension of the TT game I love. Which is why I am on the fence, TT is in all ways 3PV. BUT I also understand this game is not TT. So my personal conundrum rages. I do prefer 1PV though.

[IrrelevantFish]

EDIT: After posting, I discovered that Bryan Ekman's previous posts had already indicated that current plans will satisfy items 1 and 3. My bad.


I'm not fundamentally opposed to the addition of an in-game, 3rd-person view, and I think it could become an asset to the game (maybe even a big one), but only if its implementation satisfies the following criteria:

1) Shelve 3rd-Person until after the release of in-game help content and HUD improvements
Managing the leg-torso disconnect is not the only thing noobs struggle with, and the kind of person who doesn't have the patience to figure out how to operate a mech in 1st-person is not going to have the patience to sit through the training videos or search the forums for help.

Additionally, I have a very hard time believing the current, mini-map-based indicator is the best way to sort out where one's legs are pointed. It's not horrible, but even for a vet like me it can be frustrating on occasion. I think there are other options to explore, and whether they were as simple as a dedicated, compass-like indicator (preferably viewed isometrically) or as complicated as replacing the current "paper-doll" damage indicators with animated holograms, I suspect they would be easier to implement than a 3rd-person view.

In other words, if making MWO accessible is the goal, it would be far more effective to provide interactive tutorials, tool-tips, an improved HUD, or even a simple manual. Starting with 3rd-person is just plain foolish.

2) Do not allow 3rd-Person in Community Warfare.
The gameplay issues mentioned by prior posters are all potentially soluble, but there's one problem that's beyond fixing: human psychology. There are a significant number of hardcore, vocal, 1st-person-only devotees out there who will not accept any kind of 3rd-person, and their resentment will have a significant impact on a game-mode as reliant on socialization and group dynamics as CW. Competition is healthy, but contempt is not, and it drives new players away just as surely as difficult controls. The only way to prevent that is isolation.

Thus, the only way to include 3rd-person in CW is to risk a re-enactment of the intro to Dr. Seuss's "The Sneetches" or follow through with King Solomon's threat and cut the baby in half. Either way, you'll be taking a lot of the community out of Community Warfare and compromising the biggest selling point of MWO.

3) Actively prevent the pop-tarting/peeking issues that plagued MW4.
There are many ways of going about this, and I think the "pulling-in" mechanic mentioned in the OP is certainly a viable option. Rainbow 6: Vegas used something similar at higher difficulty levels to prevent players from seeing around objects when in 3rd-person. I think it would be trickier to implement in MWO, but not impossible.

Edited by IrrelevantFish, 25 March 2013 - 12:30 PM.

[EvangelionUnit]

will there be a higher reward CBILL and EXP wise for 1st person players who play again 3rd person players ?

oh as long as i get double EXP and CBILL's i don't care if the others get 50% of ther view block by the back of there mech or not

Edited by EvangelionUnit, 25 March 2013 - 09:50 AM.

[Elder Thorn]

Roadbeer, on 25 March 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

This is a little disingenuous of ALL the games around, the sole reason you bought in to this game was that it was 1PV? Not the concept, genre or aesthetics? The ONLY reason you bought in was because it was first person?

Look, I've made my point clear of how vehemently I'm against 3PV, but seriously people...

i kind of agree with you here but (and this also goes out to the devs): We were told that this game would be first person only, we bought our founders packs because we had so much trust in PGI and we wanted to support them and Mechwarrior.
Since then, things were constantly changed - big things. If i had to make the choice today, if i want to support PGI with a founder's package or not, i wouldn't do it, because the things that changed aren't what i want in a game like this.
Sure, one can argue, that it is their game, not mine, but it's also my money. I am not saying that i won't buy any MC, just that i would take another decision if i had to make it again.

So for the devs that means: sure, go on, implement it, do with your game what you want, but stop to ******' lie to us. You also said, there won't be coolant flush, whoops, look what we got here.
You said there will be CW... looking arround today i still don't see it.

Edited by Elder Thorn, 25 March 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[yamishan]

if this option is implemented so people playing in third person CANNOT EVER play against people playing in first person mode then it will work. because even with having all of your listed "options" for third person view on; it means any person using a third person view will automatically be able to see things outside of the field of view of anyone using first person no matter how and where u implement and place the camera for it. I.E. someone in 3rd person view will see someone coming at them from a side angle without turning/twisting to see them while a person in first peron has to do said twist/turn to see that person which gives a 3rd person view user an immediate edge with situational awareness ... this is caused by the fact that a 3rd person view camera has to be placed behind the char/mech model in the game which gives a wider view range aproxx 120-210 degrees fov in 3rd person (depending on cam distance from model) compared to the 90 degrees fov in first person view

Edited by yamishan, 25 March 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[EvilCow]

Another point of concern that should be addressed is cheating.

I imagine that the handling of 3PV would be entirely client side, the server is not involved in that kind of things. This means that it would be possible to enable 3PV in games supposedly1PV-only or change the point of view to get a greater advantage or disable some of the mentioned 3PV limitations.

It would be a relatively simple runtime memory hack performed through a DLL injection.

[Mystere]

van Uber, on 25 March 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

What ends up to be the point of 3PV in this case? Better understanding of torso-position relative to legs? Can't this type of information be delivered within the Mech itself in 1PV?

It already is (e.g. existing "radar" map). But, it seems that there are people who are unable to "process" the information provided by existing functionality.

I am not really surprised though, People do not have the exact same level of spatial recognition. Not all people react in exactly the same way to the very exact same visual stimulus.

Edited by Mystere, 25 March 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[PANZERBUNNY]

The arrow on the map is incredibly complex to learn it's evil shenanigans.

yamishan, on 25 March 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

if this option is implemented so people playing in third person CANNOT EVER play against people playing in first person mode then it will work. because even with having all of your listed "options" for third person view on; it means any person using a third person view will automatically be able to see things outside of the field of view of anyone using first person no matter how and where u implement and place the camera for it. I.E. someone in 3rd person view will see someone coming at them from a side angle without turning/twisting to see them while a person in first peron has to do said twist/turn to see that person which gives a 3rd person view user an immediate edge with situational awareness ... this is caused by the fact that a 3rd person view camera has to be placed behind the char/mech model in the game which gives a wider view range aproxx 120-210 degrees fov in 3rd person (depending on cam distance from model) compared to the 90 degrees fov in first person view

It splits the playerbase. That is a big "not working" when it's already going to be split amongst 5 House Factions, Merc units working for those Factions and the Clans.

It's like herding cats to stop them from ruining the game.

[Mystere]

IrrelevantFish, on 25 March 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

1) Shelve 3rd-Person until after the release of in-game help content and HUD improvements

Why not explore both solutions at the same time?

As for non-3PV improvements, having a 3D rendition of the mech in one of the cockpit monitors just might work. My only issue with this is that the player will have to switch his vision at all times between the cockpit view and the monitor display (same as with the mini-map). Not all people can do that well. Having 3PV might just remove such visual switching for many people.

Note that that is also why we have laws that prohibit the use of cell phones while driving.

Also note that I fully understand that any new development can and will take time and resources away from what is currently being done or planned already. But, that is what a software development project manager is for.

IrrelevantFish, on 25 March 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

2) Do not allow 3rd-Person in Community Warfare.

If there is visual/sensor parity between the two modes, then I do not see any good reason for doing this. And frankly, I think anyone still complaining after a well implemented 3PV mode is made is probably just being stubborn or "difficult".

IrrelevantFish, on 25 March 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

3) Actively prevent the pop-tarting/peeking issues that plagued MW4.

EvilCow, on 25 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Another point of concern that should be addressed is cheating.

yamishan, on 25 March 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

any person using a third person view will automatically be able to see things outside of the field of view of anyone using first person ...

Then one of the design goals should be to eliminate such issues.

Edited by Mystere, 25 March 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[PANZERBUNNY]

The only reason I can imagine 3rd person benig put in is so people can look at their pretty camo. That's the only non game effecting reason I can think of. Any other possibility means 3PV is a detriment to the style of play we've been told this game would be.