18 replies to this topic

[Tennex]

"But Paul, you said you'd REMOVE splash damage!!!!
I know I did, but here's the kicker and yet another part of the mystery of missile damage. We tried removing splash damage and it did exactly what you think it was going to do. Pinpoint on target damage. Cool right? Yes... but...

Doing this exposed a problem with the groupingl"

i dn't understand the logic

don't missiles still do the pinpoint damage of 1.8. and added AoE damage to the components? I don't see how having AoE mitigates the weapon grouping issue. its going to do even more added damage.

why not fix the grouping issue? there is no problem with exposing that issue. thats what we WANT right? like how removing ECM would expose the LRM problem so it can be examined. Or how this massive bug exposed the LRM mechanic to be reevaluated.


anyway in foresight. a good idea is to have the weapon mechanics programer work together with the weapon number tweaker.

Ideally every weapon mechanic change should be reviewed by the balance team before making it into live game. (See 90* turn angle LRM crisis)

Edited by Tennex, 21 March 2013 - 04:19 PM.

[Vermaxx]

No, what he's saying is missiles do pinpoint of 0.7 or whatever, and then spread 40% at best. They do it this way BECAUSE hitting at 1.8 PLUS BONUS was the hell we were living, and also creates too many dead heads and torsos.

I don't think they can do it like tabletop - where missiles just 'roll to hit...' instead of using actual real world replicated physics to determine a flight path and thereby create a realistic hit location. This is probably the smartest way they can force missile weapons to "spread" SIMILAR to tabletop without completely ignoring where you fired from, how close, whether you aimed well, etc.

[Tennex]

yeah i get what hes saying, is that instaed of just removing AoE damage. he reduced the damage of each missile to compensate for tight grouping.

welp i hope in the future the numbers guy and the weapon behavior guy works together. because weapon mechanics make a massive effect on balance. at least weapon behavior changes need to be reviewed for balance before making it into game.

Edited by Tennex, 21 March 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[stjobe]

You missed this part:

"We now have a high percentage of any incoming missile targeting the CT. This is BAD."

When they removed splash damage it became apparent that their grouping code is biased towards CT, and they don't want that.

So while they tinker away at the grouping code, they just put splash damage back in and dialed down the individual missile damage, splash damage, and splash radius until it "felt right".

Also, this part:
"THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS MESSAGE:
This is a TEMPORARY fix to quell the damage done by missiles at this time. We are fully investigating the damage model AND focusing on the grouping of missiles and will update as soon as we can on how any changes will be managed/implemented."

[Tennex]

stjobe, on 21 March 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

You missed this part:

"We now have a high percentage of any incoming missile targeting the CT. This is BAD."

When they removed splash damage it became apparent that their grouping code is biased towards CT, and they don't want that.

So while they tinker away at the grouping code, they just put splash damage back in and dialed down the individual missile damage, splash damage, and splash radius until it "felt right".

Also, this part:
"THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS MESSAGE:
This is a TEMPORARY fix to quell the damage done by missiles at this time. We are fully investigating the damage model AND focusing on the grouping of missiles and will update as soon as we can on how any changes will be managed/implemented."

you missed my point. removing splash damage doesn't magicallyl make the weapon grouping tighter to only hit the CT.

Removing splash damage REVEALED that there was a underlying grouping issue of missiles hitting the CT.

[Vermaxx]

I think this is the "working together" man, they just don't have the time or option to playtest like we do...and I suspect very few of the devstaff are "dead inside" gamers who like boating the most min/max build they can without any room for personal stupidity and zaniness.

In short, they let the "beta testers" beta test their numbers, and then they determine if NUMBERS need work, or MAJOR GAME DESIGN needs work. I like how LRMs fire and hit right now, but we're getting through the process of seeing if it would be simpler to let them roll on a RNG+chart instead of using in-depth physics to control how they fly and therefore what they hit.

[Gaan Cathal]

stjobe, on 21 March 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

You missed this part:

"We now have a high percentage of any incoming missile targeting the CT. This is BAD."

When they removed splash damage it became apparent that their grouping code is biased towards CT, and they don't want that.

So while they tinker away at the grouping code, they just put splash damage back in and dialed down the individual missile damage, splash damage, and splash radius until it "felt right".

Also, this part:
"THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS MESSAGE:
This is a TEMPORARY fix to quell the damage done by missiles at this time. We are fully investigating the damage model AND focusing on the grouping of missiles and will update as soon as we can on how any changes will be managed/implemented."

Well that helps. I was getting a bit curious about how lowering damage but keeping splash would rectify the issue where a Commando takes five times more damage from an SRM volley than an Atlas.

[Vermaxx]

Tennex, on 21 March 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

Removing splash damage REVEALED that there was a underlying grouping issue of missiles hitting the CT.

And now they have one more GIANT GLARING MUST FIX YESTERDAY thing on their schedule, that they didn't have last week. They made a bandaid fix until they can determine what can be done.

There are a lot of problems here - Artemis being a huge one. Artemis is supposed to make more missiles hit (tabletop) and improves grouping here (because everything hits barring terrain or AMS). They have to determine how to 'fairly' spread out the hit clusters, but still make Artemis worth using. Just after Artemis came out and was obscene, it got into 'not worth using' for weeks. LRM performance was unimpressive, SRM didn't even get a bonus. They don't want to go back to that.

[WVAnonymous]

If only I'd known that was the bug...

I would have quit LRM-spamming the Atlases and working down. Instead, I should have started with the Commandos and worked up.

Ah, the joys of beta testing.

[Tennex]

Vermaxx, on 21 March 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

There are a lot of problems here - Artemis being a huge one. Artemis is supposed to make more missiles hit (tabletop) and improves grouping here (because everything hits barring terrain or AMS). They have to determine how to 'fairly' spread out the hit clusters, but still make Artemis worth using. Just after Artemis came out and was obscene, it got into 'not worth using' for weeks. LRM performance was unimpressive, SRM didn't even get a bonus. They don't want to go back to that.

yeah. LRMs would have to already have loose grouping, that spreads damage over mech, for Artemis to group it tighter. Right now, the LRMs are alreayd grouped so tight, that Artemis makes LRMs ridiculously pin point like a SRM in the face.

anyway i hope they look at LRM balance more from a weapon behavior point of view rather than a tweaking number point of view form now on.

Edited by Tennex, 21 March 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[stjobe]

Tennex, on 21 March 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

you missed my point. removing splash damage doesn't magicallyl make the weapon grouping tighter to only hit the CT.

Removing splash damage REVEALED that there was a underlying grouping issue of missiles hitting the CT.

Which was what I said. Perhaps I'm still missing your point though, because I can't see it. They ARE fixing the grouping, just not in this patch.

Gaan Cathal, on 21 March 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Well that helps. I was getting a bit curious about how lowering damage but keeping splash would rectify the issue where a Commando takes five times more damage from an SRM volley than an Atlas.

The splash radius prior to the patch was 8m for LRMs and 7m for SRMs. It's now 1.8m and 1.3m respectively. So no more enveloping the whole Commando in every missile's splash radius.

[Chemie]

but what did they change on tuesday that broke this in the first place...never addressed.

[Ph30nix]

they nerfed missle damage into the ground and your still complaining? i take it you want a game with no missles and 270 meter weapons only

[Markoxford]

You have to understand that programming is not hit and miss. The explanation indicates that there is a complex interaction between the multitude of variables that are calculated on each and every shot. The developers have taken the approach to adjust one variable at a time and see the effects not only on the stats, but also the "feel". Give them time, give them honest feedback and most of all give them a little credit that they might just know what they are doing.

[Vermaxx]

Tennex, on 21 March 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

yeah. LRMs would have to already have loose grouping, that spreads damage over mech, for Artemis to group it tighter. Right now, the LRMs are alreayd grouped so tight, that Artemis makes LRMs ridiculously pin point like a SRM in the face.

anyway i hope they look at LRM balance more from a weapon behavior point of view rather than a tweaking number point of view form now on.

My fear, is that they would have to totally redo the missile system. Sure, there are people who want that, but it grossly delays an already grossly delayed game. If there is ANY way to salvage the current system with math and tweaks, they're going to do that before ripping out missiles entirely and starting over.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Chemie, on 21 March 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

but what did they change on tuesday that broke this in the first place...never addressed.

They "fixed" the bug that was causing missiles to do less than desired damage to the legs of mechs. In the process something else got messed up. The "fix" to leg damage seems to be working correctly, so it was addressed.

It is also possible that the fix to the leg problem was simply the first step in highlighting the grouping/damage problem.

Whatever happened, they are working on it.

[Coolwhoami]

Hotfixes: apparently capable of manipulating every possible game feature at one, so sayeth tennex

[Clay Pigeon]

Lasers and ballistics are as deserving of splash damage as HEAT missile warheads.

[INSEkT L0GIC]

-20 forum points for referencing another post without linking to it.