5 replies to this topic

[Frank the Tank]

On mechs with multiple missile hard-points it is possible to group fire smaller missile launchers to avoid the volley fire mechanic. It seems that missile launchers will fire whatever the max number of missile tubes on the mech then fire the remainder in a second volley. The Atlas which comes stock with a LRM20 will volley fire 10 + 10 missiles, because it only has 10 missile tubes. However, if you group fire launchers together that are smaller or equal to in number of the missile tubes you can avoid the volley firing and launch them all at once. So an Atlas with 2 LRM10s will fire 20 missiles out of 10 tubes at once. I did comprehensive testing on the CN9-A and the JR7-D, because I currently own them and they have multiple missile hard-points with small tube counts.

The Centurion A has 10 missile tubes and 3 missile hard-points; group fired they behave this way:
These launcher setups are not obeying the mechs missile tubes:

• 3 LRM5s fire all 15 missiles at once. (should fire 10 + 5)
  
• 2 LRM10s fire all 20 missiles at once. (should fire 10 + 10)
  
• 3 LRM10s fire all 30 missiles at once. (should fire 10 + 10 + 10)
  
• 2 LRM15s volley fire 20 + 10 missiles. (should fire 10 + 10 + 10)
  
• (Did not test 2 LRM20, but based off of 2 LRM15s I bet they fire 20 + 20 missiles) (should fire 10 + 10 + 10 + 10)
  
• 3 SRM4s fire all 12 missiles at once. (should fire 10 + 2)
  
• 2 SRM6s fire all 12 missiles at once. (should fire 10 + 2)
  
• 3 SRM6s fire all 18 missiles at once. (should fire 10 + 8)

These launcher setups are behaving correctly:

• 2 LRM5s fire 10 missiles at once.
  
• 1 LRM15 volley fires 10 + 5 missiles.
  
• 1 LRM20 volley fires 10 + 10 missiles.
  
• 2 SRM4s fire 8 missiles at once.
  
• SRM4 + SRM6 fire all 10 missiles at once.

The Jenner D has 4 missile tubes and 2 missile hard-points; group fired they behave this way:
These launcher setups are not obeying the mechs missile tubes:

• 2 SRM4s fire all 8 missiles at once. (should fire 4 + 4)
  
• 2 LRM5s volley fire 8 + 4 missiles. (should fire 4 + 4 + 2)

These launcher setups are behaving correctly:

• 2 SSRM2s fire 4 missiles at once.
  
• 1 SRM6 volley fires 4 + 2 missiles.
  
• 1 LRM5 volley fires 4 + 1 missiles.
  
• 1 LRM10 volley fires 4 + 4 + 2 missiles.

I believe what is happening is that when group firing missiles the missile tube limit is limiting the launchers individually; given the fact that launchers like the LRM5 on the JR7-D and the LRM15 on the CN9-A still obey the missile tubes and volley fire on individual launchers. Its just that the game treats them as (10 + 10) + (5 + 5) for the 2 LRM15s on the CN9-A. What should happen is it should treat the total group fired missiles as one launcher, so 2 LRM15s would be treated like a LRM30 and volley fire 10 + 10 + 10.

Fixing this bug would effectively nerf some missile heavy builds, in particular the splatcat and the 3 SRM6 zombie centurion. Rather than firing 36 SRMs at once a 6 SRM6 splatcat would fire a volley of 30 + 6 SRMs. Rather than firing 18 SRMs at once a centurion would volley fire 10 + 8 SRMs. This fix would also effect some LRM boats. Fixing this bug is a reasonable solution to many players complaints about SRM and LRM boats without changing the weapon systems. Also most of these builds still retain their power, it only requires a bit of additional skill or timing to fully utilize it.

In order to prevent people from bypassing the volley fire system by using chain fire I would recommend a global cool-down on missile tubes. This cool-down should be a bit longer than the time it would take to automatically volley fire if the missiles were group fired. Assuming it takes a quarter of a second to automatically volley fire, then make the global cool-down to chain fire half a second. So you couldn't fire faster with chain fire than the volley.

With this bug in mind I think that PGI's balance team should also look at how other multiple hard-point weapons with 1 barrel setups are working. What comes to mind is the double UAC/5 setups. Normally when I use dual UAC/5s I chain fire to avoid jams, but if I switch them to group fire they will fire at the exact same time from the exact same barrel and the bullets will travel together as one and hit the exact same spot. So group firing UAC/5s creates a UAC/10 although with more weight and slots. (Note the Jaggermech has 2 guns per arm so the dual UAC/5 on the Jagger would be alright). Lasers and PPCs do the same thing, although it could be argued that this is ok due to the nature of those weapons.

Please take a look at the missile volley bug first and keep up the good work PGI.

Frank the Tank

[HATER 1]

good post. I counter with this: instead of limiting the launchers to the chassis launcher tubes, how about giving us different meshes with the proper tube count for a build? the current patch did just that with some weapons/mechs- notably the K2 and gauss.

[Kmieciu]

I confirm and exploit that bug very often ;-)

[Monkeystador]

I like to add that you might want to check out other mechs. I got the feeling on some mechs the volley system is in place. At least for LRMs. The Atlas does fire a 2x 20LRM combo in 4 volleys. So it works.
But its fires 3x6 SRMs in a single volley.
I looks like SRMs are not affected by the volley system here. But on the Awesome with a dual tube on the left arm a 3x4 SRM system ist fired in two volleys.
So there is a different measure on the SRM system. Changing that would certainly have a effect on the builds. For game simulation realism the tube count should be honoured always. For gameplay it might look different.
The game, as it is now, is incredibly complex. Give them time to tweak these small issues.

[XSerjo]

Monkeystador, on 22 March 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

I like to add that you might want to check out other mechs. I got the feeling on some mechs the volley system is in place. At least for LRMs. The Atlas does fire a 2x 20LRM combo in 4 volleys. So it works.

Disagree, I've tested my LRM40 AS7-D durng the "LRM madeness time". It fires single LRM20 in 2 volleys and 2xLRM20 in two volleys (20+20, not 10+10+10+10).
I think PGI should repair missile-tubes restrictions BEFORE any changes in splash/damage system. Because it'll partially solve missile-boating problem: cents will use srm4+srm6 instaad of awful 3xsrm6, LRM100 stalkers will be less useful, etc.

[Frank the Tank]

XSerjo, on 22 March 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

[/size]

Disagree, I've tested my LRM40 AS7-D durng the "LRM madeness time". It fires single LRM20 in 2 volleys and 2xLRM20 in two volleys (20+20, not 10+10+10+10).
I think PGI should repair missile-tubes restrictions BEFORE any changes in splash/damage system. Because it'll partially solve missile-boating problem: cents will use srm4+srm6 instaad of awful 3xsrm6, LRM100 stalkers will be less useful, etc.

You're exactly right. Adjusting missile damage, spread, splash, or anything else before fixing this bug will only cause problems down the road when this bug is fixed. The history of missiles in MWO is filled with examples of where bugs are not addressed and missiles are buffed or nerfed to make them viable, then when the bug is addressed they become broken again.

In CB you could "ghost lock" enemies after you lost target info making LRMs hit all the time. Additionally LRM flight path was 45 degrees up then a 90 degree drop onto the top side of a mech. With these two bugs LRMs were very powerful. The result was their damage was reduced.

Later when these bugs were fixed (and AMS was made available on all mechs) LRMs became useless. So they got a damage buff.

ECM was added and missiles got another damage buff to compensate.

With the newest Artemis changes and improvements to LRM flight path LRMs need to have their damage reduced.

New info shows that splash damage is doing more than intended. The devs are doing the correct thing by removing splash and working on the problem rather than adjusting damage again, however, once a proper splash mechanic is added damage will need to be tuned again.

The volley fire bug needs to be addressed now too while splash is being looked into, or else once the bug is fixed more tuning will need to be done later.

The reason why missiles have been adjusted so much is because they rely on a complicated system of balance - number fired, probability to hit, flight path, AMS, ECM, damage per missile, splash, etc. - so I'm not faulting PGI for taking awhile and making some mistakes along the way. I'm just trying to blow the whistle now so there can be a proactive solution rather than fixing the volley fire bug and throwing off balance again.

As for the Atlas volley firing correctly, I have not done extensive testing on it but remember it has 10 LRM missile tubes and 6 SRM missile tubes. I wonder if it is using both sets? I'll look into this.