97 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Caleb Lee, on 23 March 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

I've read through to the Fall of the Clans and I've not seen one word about any heat seeking missiles?

I linked it -.-

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 23 March 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

I could swear there are heat seeking lrm/srm heads -.-
http://www.sarna.net...Seeking_Warhead
hey i found it

and the books are tactical operations and unbound

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 24 March 2013 - 12:34 AM.

[MWHawke]

I think those are special munitions. Notice they say that they are not compatible with Artemis, NARC and Streak guidance systems.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

MWHawke, on 24 March 2013 - 12:39 AM, said:

I think those are special munitions. Notice they say that they are not compatible with Artemis, NARC and Streak guidance systems.

Oh you were talking in general. My bad

[MWHawke]

No idea. The link for the general LRMs is this one:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

MWHawke, on 24 March 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

No idea. The link for the general LRMs is this one:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM

Ya doesnt say anything about guidance.
Then again you kinda have to add some kind of tracking in a game like this cause noone stands still. This isnt TT where you cant move out of the way after a LRM fires

[Suprentus]

Cpt Beefheart, on 22 March 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

In amongst this whole "derp derp derp, I don't want 3rd person herp derp" thing has come the disposition that the MWO is a simulator (I don't want to use 3rd person either, but I'll get to that later). Please kids, calm down, the Mechwarrior series are not simulators in the pure sense of the word, and I for one am thankful they are not.

Here's some features that simulators have, and how MWO and other games in the MW series compare.


Functional cockpits and micromanagement

So far, MWO has shown intention of displaying readouts on LCD screens in cockpits. However in simulators this is the primary feature of the game, and you spend more time looking at instruments than you do looking at your HUD, especially outside of combat. This is because, IRL, when piloting/driving a piece of machinery it is physically impossible to display every important piece of information, in its finer points, on a HUD, and it's more sensible to put detailed readouts (which you need when operating complex machines) on an instrument panel rather than cluttering the pilot's line of sight.

This also means micromanagement. In flight simulators this is air:fuel ratios, voltage, radar management, scopes, bomb/rocket timing, laser targeting and so on, which MW games do-not feature. IRL, it's feasible that a big stompy robot would still need a great deal of its human "brain" to manage such systems rather than leaving it to an AI which is likely to get damaged in combat.

If MWO was a simulator, you'll be spending more time looking away from the action, clicking on a control panel and pressing hot keys than you would be going *pew pew pew*.

I started reading your wall of text, but this is as far as I could get. My eyes kept rolling back that I couldn't read any further.

First off, you're wrong. A vehicle sim doesn't have to be super micromanagement detailed. http://en.wikipedia....simulation_game

Second, keeping more attention on instruments IRL is starting to tone down anyway. I've heard pilots describe the F-15 fighter jet as dividing your attention so that 80% of your awareness is on your instruments, and 20% is actually looking out your cockpit. The new F-22, on the other hand, interprets data so well for you that only 20% of your awareness needs to be on your instruments, and 80% can be outside your cockpit. Not to mention that fly-by-wire systems are getting more and more sophisticated over the generations.

Furthermore, when you drive your car, do you spend most of your time looking at your speedometer, or is most of your attention focused on the road?

What about the entire space sim or racing sim subgenres, where info is purposely presented in such a way so you can focus on the action? Are those no longer sims now, just because you say so?

Finally, as just a side note (really more semantics than anything), a simulator actually has a model cockpit to interact with the software. A simulation is just software that allows your own peripherals. I think your confusion between the terms is also contributing to your presuppositions.

TL;DR: Get a clue, OP. You're flat out wrong.

Edited by Suprentus, 24 March 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[Arvinman]

So you guys are not happy if MWO has a 3rd person view because it would reduce a realism in the name of simulator game?

Seriously?

Let look at other simulator game

Microsoft Flight Simulator: has 3rd person camera.
DCS-A10C: has 3rd person camera.
Falcon 4.0: Allied Force: has 3rd person camera.

Those are truly serious simulator game. All of them has it and no serious simmer complain that.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Suprentus, on 24 March 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

I started reading your wall of text, but this is as far as I could get. My eyes kept rolling back that I couldn't read any further.

If this is an issue maybe you should not utilize a communication form that requires reading

[Suprentus]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 24 March 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

If this is an issue maybe you should not utilize a communication form that requires reading pure BS

FTFY

[MWHawke]

Anyway, I'm still in awe that someone went to all that trouble to disprove the realism of this game by making current real-world comparisons with a game that is supposed to come into existence in the far distant future. But, honestly, the designers did get some of it right, eg. HUDs for Apache, etc. I've even seen a company advertise that they have an external limited HUD system for car windscreens.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Arvinman, on 24 March 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

So you guys are not happy if MWO has a 3rd person view because it would reduce a realism in the name of simulator game?

Seriously?

Let look at other simulator game

Microsoft Flight Simulator: has 3rd person camera.
DCS-A10C: has 3rd person camera.
Falcon 4.0: Allied Force: has 3rd person camera.

Those are truly serious simulator game. All of them has it and no serious simmer complain that.

you are aware the devs are the ones who called it a simulator FIRST?
This argument sounds like a friend of mine who says that games arent something just because it says it is on the box/the reviewers say its that genre/the developers say it is.
For example; he thinks Gran Turismo isnt a realistic racing sim, even though the box/devs/reviews say differently. Then again he NEVER admits he's wrong either

[Kvalheim]

The thing about "true" sim games too is that they're played by people with a love of the vehicle both inside and out, so they like to occasionally get a look at the 1950's Locomotive / F-22 Fighter / Garbage Truck they're driving from a third person view. I don't think it's totally outlandish that someone who loves 'Mechs would want to see their titanic war machine from the outside, aside from the Mech Lab

[MWHawke]

Arvinman, on 24 March 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

So you guys are not happy if MWO has a 3rd person view because it would reduce a realism in the name of simulator game?

Seriously?

Let look at other simulator game

Microsoft Flight Simulator: has 3rd person camera.
DCS-A10C: has 3rd person camera.
Falcon 4.0: Allied Force: has 3rd person camera.

Those are truly serious simulator game. All of them has it and no serious simmer complain that.

Just a note though, there are a few differences in those kind of warfare as compared to ground combat. Some include if you get hit by a missile, your plane explodes so no issues about being ambushed from behind. Also, it is unlikely that you will be trying to peep over cover from a mountain cause your plane can't stand still to hide behind one.

[Suprentus]

Arvinman, on 24 March 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

So you guys are not happy if MWO has a 3rd person view because it would reduce a realism in the name of simulator game?

Seriously?

Let look at other simulator game

Microsoft Flight Simulator: has 3rd person camera.
DCS-A10C: has 3rd person camera.
Falcon 4.0: Allied Force: has 3rd person camera.

Those are truly serious simulator game. All of them has it and no serious simmer complain that.

If I recall correctly, the 3rd person cameras in these games aren't actually practical to use, as you have no access to your HUD or any info while flying 3rd person. All they're really for is just to take in the view for a bit before having to return to 1st person view to get back to business.

In fact, I'd laud this approach to 3rd person in MWO, if you can't use your HUD while in 3rd person. I know it won't happen though, and 3rd person is going to be as practical (well more so) than 1st person.

Edited by Suprentus, 24 March 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[Kvalheim]

They did actually explicitly state in a dev post about third person they were very much considering NO HUD aside from perhaps the square around current target.
And a bunch of other stuff like not being able to target stuff not in 1st person LoS and camera locking that basically makes it impractical to play 3PV.


But of course nobody reads those because they're all too busy saying the game is dead. It's amazing how many people in F2P games (not just MWO) seem to WANT the game to fail

Edited by Kvalheim, 24 March 2013 - 01:08 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Kvalheim, on 24 March 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

They did actually explicitly state in a dev post about third person they were very much considering NO HUD aside from perhaps the square around current target.
And a bunch of other stuff like not being able to target stuff not in 1st person LoS and camera locking that basically makes it impractical to play 3PV.


But of course nobody reads those because they're all too busy saying the game is dead. It's amazing how many people in F2P games (not just MWO) seem to WANT the game to fail

It should be NO HUD at all, no targetting info or anything given that youre no longer LOOKING through the HUD to get the view

Kvalheim, on 24 March 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

But of course nobody reads those because they're all too busy saying the game is dead. It's amazing how many people in F2P games (not just MWO) seem to WANT the game to fail

funny how warning the devs theyre doing something just stupid because you dont want the game to fail equates to wanting the game to fail to you

[Kvalheim]

I'm trying to find the exact post but I'm still new and have no idea where anything is on this forum, but it pretty much says something along the lines of that 3rd person is only coming in if they can make it have no advantage over 1st person, including severely restricted HUD, camera locking vertical and horizontal to torso, zooming into the 'Mech near cover to reduce FoV, etc.

Yes, I know I'm going to get replies saying that I'm believing damage control and BS, but frankly sometimes you have to have someone who isn't cynical of every single thing a game developer says.

[Thirdstar]

Kvalheim, on 24 March 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

....but frankly sometimes you have to have someone who isn't cynical of every single thing a game developer says.

Why? Cynicism is the correct response to vast majority of gaming, specially considering current events such as the Mass Effect 3 brouhaha, the Aliens: Colonial Marines flop and the Simcity disaster among many many other examples.

Why do you think people are flocking to Kickstarter and Indie games?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Kvalheim, on 24 March 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

I'm trying to find the exact post but I'm still new and have no idea where anything is on this forum, but it pretty much says something along the lines of that 3rd person is only coming in if they can make it have no advantage over 1st person, including severely restricted HUD, camera locking vertical and horizontal to torso, zooming into the 'Mech near cover to reduce FoV, etc.

Yes, I know I'm going to get replies saying that I'm believing damage control and BS, but frankly sometimes you have to have someone who isn't cynical of every single thing a game developer says.

but YET again, that only assumes that a few months down the road they dont then go "that was our position at the time" like theyre doing NOW with including 3rd pov in the game at all. Oh and the coolant issue

Thirdstar, on 24 March 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

Why? Cynicism is the correct response to vast majority of gaming, specially considering current events such as the Mass Effect 3 brouhaha, the Aliens: Colonial Marines flop and the Simcity disaster among many many other examples.

Why do you think people are flocking to Kickstarter and Indie games?

what happened to simcity?
I cant stand those games but I have two friends that bought it and I havent heard anything from them about it being garbage

[Thirdstar]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 24 March 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

what happened to simcity?
I cant stand those games but I have two friends that bought it and I havent heard anything from them about it being garbage

http://www.rockpaper...om/tag/simcity/

The story even made it to mainstream news like BBC and CNN.

Edited by Thirdstar, 24 March 2013 - 01:28 AM.