60 replies to this topic

[TexAce]

My Double-Barrel Shotgun (AKA. JM6-S with 2 LBX) has 75 LBX-10 Ammo and 4 med lasers, and does 400-800 damage per game with up to 5 kills.

The LBX is very efficient for me. I like the spread, nice to catch flies (Ravens) with it. Much easier to use than say the AC10

Edited by TexAss, 24 March 2013 - 11:31 AM.

[TehSBGX]

They've needed to tighten the spread for a while. If it gets a tigheter spread it would prolly be pretty awesome.

[Ravennus]

TexAss, on 24 March 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

My Double-Barrel Shotgun (AKA. JM6-S with 2 LBX) has 75 LBX-10 Ammo and 4 med lasers, and does 400-800 damage per game with up to 5 kills.

The LBX is very efficient for me. I like the spread, nice to catch flies (Ravens) with it. Much easier to use than say the AC10

To be honest (and I think you have admitted such in other posts), it's your 4 MLAS doing most of the damage.
Lasers are just really effective now since the host state rewind. Give a Hunchback 4P another try, and tell me you don't do even better than this Jagermech.

If the LBX-10 was half the tonnage, I would consider it just for the nice crit ability and fun factor... but at 11 tons each + ammo, it's just not worth it.

I challenge you to replace those LBXs with UAC5s, and then tell us how you are doing. If you are a halfway decent shot you should see a dramatic increase in performance, especially at longer ranges.
Not only that, but you save tonnage and crit space that can be used for other things.

[Kasiagora]

Th LBX is a lot better than it used to be. It was one of my first modifications on my first mech (a Dragon) in MW:O because it's one of my favorite weapons in TT. At that time the spread on it was so bad that its pattern would be the size of an entire Atlas at 90 meters, and a small mountain on Forest Colony at 250 meters. That being said, it's not the superior piece of equipment that it should be. I think it would be great to have a toggle between ammunition types, but I think that would be unbalanced, over-powered, make there no reason to have the std AC-10, etc. Therefore I agree with StandingInFire's comment on having it a solid slug that detonates and spreads a certain distance before hitting its target. This is something that I've thought in the past and I think it would also be the perfect mechanic to use if they were to ever give us Inferno SRMs; having the missiles detonate a few meters in front of a target and splash napalm onto just a couple of locations on a mech, reducing the effectiveness of the heat sinks stored there. Like reversing the water mechanic, but I don't know if they've ever given us an official standpoint on if they want to implement infernos, and flamers still suck anyway (or did they fix them recently beyond just an improved crit chance?).

Anyway I'm getting off topic. The mech that I've had the best luck with my LBX in recently, and this is a skewed example for obvious reasons, is that I had a Cataphract 3D with an LBX, standard AC-10, and 4 medium lasers. The LBX was in the arm and I used it for slapping lights in their stupid faces when they'd try to zoom by me before the netcode got worked on, and for crit-seeking/finishing off weakened areas. Basically while I'd close in I would do semi-long range plinking with the std AC, then start hitting them with the medium lasers, and when I would get within 200m, 150m, ideally. I'd start using the LBX. The mech would routinely do over 500 points of damage in a match, going over 600 with regularity, and would get multiple kills in a match no problem. Yes, I needed two ACs to make it viable, one for hammering the armor most of the way through in one or two shots, and another for ravaging the previously damaged locations, but the mech was a damned killer. That goes into why I think a variable fire type would be OP. If a K2 had dual LBXes that could hit with slugs out at 400+ meters and click a switch to fire mech-shot within 90m, we'd be getting shredded like so many paper dolls, and it would be something new for the cry babies to shed their plentiful tears over. As it was I was spending 23 tons + another 5 tons of ammo to get that effect. Very inefficient. On a side note, I sold the mech because I needed the mech bays to work on more masteries.

EDIT: I guess it should also be noted that on a mech like this you might get a salvo or two off with the medium lasers, but you don't rely on them overly much due to the amount of heat they generate, and the lack of heat sinks from all of your space and tonnage getting eaten up by the ACs.

Edited by Kasiagora, 24 March 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

Therefore I agree with StandingInFire's comment on having it a solid slug that detonates and spreads a certain distance before hitting its target.

I think the way to do this without having to completely alter the LBX projectile is to just have it spread to a certain size and then have it spread no further so that at long range it still performs well. It won't be 'zomgrealiztic' but whatever. It's basically just a rudimentary implementation of the solid slug with a proximity fuse idea that won't require a full overhaul of the weapon.

Edited by TOGSolid, 24 March 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[TexAce]

Ravennus, on 24 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

To be honest (and I think you have admitted such in other posts), it's your 4 MLAS doing most of the damage.
Lasers are just really effective now since the host state rewind. Give a Hunchback 4P another try, and tell me you don't do even better than this Jagermech.

If the LBX-10 was half the tonnage, I would consider it just for the nice crit ability and fun factor... but at 11 tons each + ammo, it's just not worth it.

I challenge you to replace those LBXs with UAC5s, and then tell us how you are doing. If you are a halfway decent shot you should see a dramatic increase in performance, especially at longer ranges.
Not only that, but you save tonnage and crit space that can be used for other things.

Nope, first the MLAS are only a backup weapon. My Stats prove the LBX does extremly well for me.

Trust me I tried EVERYTHING on my JM. Even dual AC20s and nothing was so EASY to use as the LBX.
Its the perfect fit for me. UAC5s jam and like every other AC you need to aim pretty well to be effective. And in tough fights its easier to just dual-LBX at the legs and you are stripping armor very well.

I'm usually no fan of ACs and I'm neither a good shot with it. All my ACs have an aim accuracy of ~50%
The LBX has 82%.
According to my stats I did 2 times more damage with the LBX than the UAC5 in 20 matches each.

And on top of all that: it is extremly fun to use.

Edited by TexAss, 25 March 2013 - 04:16 AM.

[Zenthious]

Nice table, OP. I've been playing with dual LBX10's on my Atlas and my cata, and this seems to reflect what I've seen too. In fact, because of that I've actually mixed it back up with an ac10/lbx10 on my cataphract last night.

[Kmieciu]

When I see an enemy with 2xLBX, I feel relieved. A guy with 2xAC20 can get lucky and destroy me with one shot. A guy with LBX can destroy me with his 10th lucky shot.

Edited by Kmieciu, 25 March 2013 - 05:07 AM.

[Captain Wolfsburg]

I use a LB-10-X on my Atlas DDC as a light mech buster. It's easier to hit them with than a standard AC, and does a lot of damage at close range where light mechs are bound to be to make use of their SSRMs. It's definitely not the weapon it should be, but it's effective for some things. My DDC load out is 2xERPPC 1xLB-10-X and 1xLRM15. Pretty effective build for what little it has in weapons.

[Phaesphoros]

TexAss, on 25 March 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Trust me I tried EVERYTHING on my JM. Even dual AC20s and nothing was so EASY to use as the LBX.
Its the perfect fit for me. UAC5s jam and like every other AC you need to aim pretty well to be effective. And in tough fights its easier to just dual-LBX at the legs and you are stripping armor very well.
[...]
And on top of all that: it is extremly fun to use.

There's no way to deny that, especially since you talk about how useful it is to your play style. I'd even agree to the last two points you made (in this quote).

TexAss, on 25 March 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

All my ACs have an aim accuracy of ~50%
The LBX has 82%.
According to my stats I did 2 times more damage with the LBX than the UAC5 in 20 matches each.

There's an issue using raw accuracy here: AFAIK (e.g. lasers) a weapon hit is registered for accuracy even if only some of the pellets hit. Comparing dmg done to 10*shots fired (10* because of LB 10-X AC's 10 dmg/shot) is more reliable, as you probably don't shoot at targets > 540 m away.
To compare this with AC/10 accuracy is not trivial, too, as you'd probably use the AC/10 at a longer range (even beyond 450 m), where it is likely to miss. In addition to that, comparison of total damage done by those two weapons doesn't tell you how useful a weapon is (define "useful"); if it's important to take down mechs quick, that probably means focusing fire on one section. In that case, raw total dmg is not a good metric/reference value.
Comparing with UAC/5 might be more reliable, as it also tends to spread damage over several sections (due to high rate of fire).

Edited by Phaesphoros, 25 March 2013 - 06:27 AM.

[Commander Kobold]

TexAss, on 24 March 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

My Double-Barrel Shotgun (AKA. JM6-S with 2 LBX) has 75 LBX-10 Ammo and 4 med lasers, and does 400-800 damage per game with up to 5 kills.

The LBX is very efficient for me. I like the spread, nice to catch flies (Ravens) with it. Much easier to use than say the AC10

it might be easier to use but there is no argument that the AC10 is many times more combat effective than the LBX, which is sad because I like the idea of a mech shotgun.

[General Taskeen]

If you are owning with an LB 10-X it is simply because you are in a very low elo bracket where your opponents are the absolute lowest of the low.

Again, people pls stop defending the LB-X in its current format where its range isn't even an a useful advantage and demand the return of the competitive LB-X from every Mech Warrior game that has ever existed.

[F lan Ker]

S!

Well, if you look http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LB_10-X_AC you note a few things PGI changed on it. Costs 800k instead of 400k etc.

[Rippthrough]

Tightening the spread so all pellets hit a light at 540m would be a start.

[Moromillas]

Yep, that's pretty much what I expected.

There's no easy fix for LB because the weapon is intended to be shotgun like.

[ShadowbaneX]

Moromillas, on 25 March 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

Yep, that's pretty much what I expected.

There's no easy fix for LB because the weapon is intended to be shotgun like.

Actually, it's a high tech AC-10 that results it being small & lighter and having a better range than the standard. It's PGI that chose the "Shotgun" identity for it. Perhaps 'chose' might not be the correct term because it would require having an ammo switch option when it's equipped and that requires more coding. If the LB-10/X fired just standard rounds it's essentially be like a Double Heat Sinks vs Single Heat Sinks since with the exception of price the LB-10/X is pretty much better in every aspect so I suppose it did have to have a separate identity.

Still, like I said previously, a K2 with twin LB-10/Xs, a couple of MLs for back up, 4 tons of standard ammo and 2 tons of cluster munitions would be amazing. Great initial punch to strip off armour and then Cluster rounds to wreck the internals...

[Moromillas]

ShadowbaneX, on 25 March 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

Actually, it's a high tech AC-10 that results it being small & lighter and having a better range than the standard. It's PGI that chose the "Shotgun" identity for it. Perhaps 'chose' might not be the correct term because it would require having an ammo switch option when it's equipped and that requires more coding. If the LB-10/X fired just standard rounds it's essentially be like a Double Heat Sinks vs Single Heat Sinks since with the exception of price the LB-10/X is pretty much better in every aspect so I suppose it did have to have a separate identity.

Still, like I said previously, a K2 with twin LB-10/Xs, a couple of MLs for back up, 4 tons of standard ammo and 2 tons of cluster munitions would be amazing. Great initial punch to strip off armour and then Cluster rounds to wreck the internals...

Funny you should say that, that's actually the build I've been trying. The initial damage is pretty good, but there are some major drawbacks. The most obvious one, well, the range. More often than not you find your team doing damage while you're still trying to find a path through cover. Another would be the sustained damage, after a while you start to rely heavily and the LB's and can't fire your ML's that much. You just can't find a way around this, ML's eat up all your heat in the build.

[Phaesphoros]

General Taskeen, on 25 March 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

If you are owning with an LB 10-X it is simply because you are in a very low elo bracket where your opponents are the absolute lowest of the low.

That cannot be true as elo matching is based on group elo average, not on tiers. That is, if you have a low elo, your team mates will probably have a higher-than-average elo (in pugs), but you can't say anything about your opponents

Edited by Phaesphoros, 25 March 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[Kaldor]

StandingInFire, on 23 March 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

My favorite solution for the LBX is to give it a "proximity fuse" (it fires out 1 shell then once it gets x distance from a surface/mech directly in front of it it explodes into the pellets) allowing it to be used at longer ranges then SRMs with the obvious tonnage drawbacks.

Edit:
This also prevents a repeat of the AC5/UAC5 case where 1 is better than the other in all situations since it will have a unique role.

Mikallo, on 23 March 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

While this would be cool, I think it would be hard to implement. The slug would have to constantly be calculating if a mech was within proximity and within trajectory.

That said, I have no idea how they stacked code to make MWO. There could be someone on staff who readis your post and shouts "BRILLIANT!" before pounding a Guinness.

Sephlock, on 23 March 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Couldn't they just make a big hitbox, and as soon as something enters the hitbox, the spray is calculated as if the projectile was the barrel of a current lbx)?

Good ideas, but lacking one thing to really make it work:

CONVERGENCE

Without ballistic convergence it is pointless.

[Teralitha]

Voridan Atreides, on 23 March 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

I can count how many times on my fingers Ive been blown up by an LBX10.

Hell I can count on one hand how many times Ive SEEN an LBX10 on an enemy mech in recent months...


OP - Your research shows that the maximum effective range of the LBX is about 550 meters. Even though its stats say it can reach 1600ish, not a single pellet hits a a target beyond 550m.

Id say the spread is a bit too much. If the range max is 1600ish, at least 1 pellet ought to be accurate at that range. Otherwise the weapon is not worth what its priced at. Something needs tweeking here....

Although this should be common knowledge already even amongst devs after so many moons... How accurate was the LBX10 in TT at its max ranges? Did all pellets have a chance to hit?

Edited by Teralitha, 25 March 2013 - 11:07 AM.