58 replies to this topic

[5150warpig]

William Petersen, on 04 June 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

With no ammo? Source?

yeah, ammo really isnt needed to cause an explsions. sealed vessels can only absord so much heat before going boom, and beside if it didnt go boom systems failure would definetly happen because computers and humans really dont deal well with heat

[Gladewolf]

If you plan on only having 8 med lasers on a 50 tonner with an 85km max speed...you can build it with 13 double heat sinks and NEVER overheat...with some tonnage to spare.....the question i'd have is, "Will the game allow small tonnage laser boating?"

[Makaveli]

It should get you real close to it.

[Kobold]

Gladewolf, on 04 June 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

the question i'd have is, "Will the game allow small tonnage laser boating?"

Seeing as the Swayback is already in the game, the answer is yes, probably. Depending on how the hardpoints for a Jenner or Cicada are set up, you may be able to stick 6 MLs on for backstabbing fun. I would recommend killing them before they kill you, assuming you're driving a big slow target.

Edited by Kobold, 04 June 2012 - 09:10 PM.

[Woodstock]

Prosperity Park, on 01 June 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

The developers have stated that, during their playtest sessions, it's not uncommon for one of the team members rockin' a Hunchie Swayback to blow himself up with Alpha Strikes, but this is happening in the "heat" of battle. Firing it while you're cool should be okay assuming you have a decent enough basal heat capacity and the heatsinks to dissipate it afterward.

Got a quote for that comment?

I only remember them saying that people will shut down ... not blow up ...the 2 are vastly different.

[Skylarr]

In the TT game a Mech cannot "Just Blow Up". The engine has to many safety feature involved. that is why at 30 point of Heat above yu heatsink capabilities you Mech will just shut down. As you go up the Heat Scale for your ammo to explode and you mech to shut down.

HEAT SCALE EFFECTS
30+ SHUTDOWN (PSC)
28 Ammo Explosion <=7
26 Shutdown <=9 (PSC)
25 -5 MP
24 +4 To-Hit
23 Ammo Explosion <=5
22 Shutdown <=7 (PSC)
20 -4 MP
19 Ammo Explosion <=3
18 Shutdown <=5 (PSC)
17 +3 To-Hit
15 -3 MP
14 Shutdown <=3 (PSC)
13 +2 To-Hit
10 -2 MP
08 +1 To-Hit
05 -1 MP

[Jun Watarase]

Everything i predicted turned out to be true.

4 med lasers do the same damage as an AC20 but have no ammo limitations and weigh less (even with heatsinks factored in).

The 8 med laser hunchback is effectively a hunchback with 2 AC20s. That never run out of ammo.

100% accuracy for the win...just like MW4.

And you can apparently alpha strike 3 times with it before shutting down, since you don't take any penalties to movement or accuracy (unlike the tabletop, when going over 4 heat incurs penalties).

(To clarify, i'm not in the beta).

[Hardac]

Solis Obscuri, on 01 June 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

It's been confirmed that the devs have repeatedly blown themselves up piloting the swayback.

Noobs.

[HIemfire]

Skylarr, on 04 June 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

In the TT game a Mech cannot "Just Blow Up". The engine has to many safety feature involved. that is why at 30 point of Heat above yu heatsink capabilities you Mech will just shut down. As you go up the Heat Scale for your ammo to explode and you mech to shut down.

HEAT SCALE EFFECTS
30+ SHUTDOWN (PSC)
28 Ammo Explosion <=7
26 Shutdown <=9 (PSC)
25 -5 MP
24 +4 To-Hit
23 Ammo Explosion <=5
22 Shutdown <=7 (PSC)
20 -4 MP
19 Ammo Explosion <=3
18 Shutdown <=5 (PSC)
17 +3 To-Hit
15 -3 MP
14 Shutdown <=3 (PSC)
13 +2 To-Hit
10 -2 MP
08 +1 To-Hit
05 -1 MP

What is being refered to is the Expanded heat scale, for your reference:

Quote

Expanded Heat Scale (Tactical Operations pg. 104)
Heat points: Effects
50: Shutdown
49: –9 Movement Points
48: +7 modifier to fire
47: *Pilot damage, avoid on a result of 12
46: Shutdown, avoid on a result of 20+
45: Ammo explosion
44: **System failure, avoid on a result of 10+
43: –8 Movement Points
42: Shutdown, avoid on a result of 18+
41: +6 modifier to fire
40: Ammo explosion, avoid on a result of 12
39: *Pilot damage, avoid on a result of 10+
38: Shutdown, avoid on a result of 16+
37: –7 Movement Points
36: **System failure, avoid on a result of 8+
35: Ammo explosion, avoid on a result of 10+
34: Shutdown, avoid on a result of 14+
33: +5 modifier to fire
32: *Pilot damage, avoid on a result of 8+
31: –6 Movement Points
30: Shutdown, avoid on a result of 12+

*If the Avoid Roll fails, the pilot takes 1 point of damage. If the ’Mech has suffered a Life Support critical hit, this damage cannot be avoided, and is added to damage normally suffered (see p. 127, TW).

** Extreme heat levels can cause critical damage to the ’Mech. If the Avoid Roll fails, roll a hit location on the Front column of the ’Mech Critical Hit Table and apply a single critical hit to that location. Determine the slot hit normally.

Under the expanded rules you can cook yourself to death as well as blow yourself up.

Edited by HIemfire, 05 June 2012 - 03:09 AM.

[Ratzap]

Skylarr, on 04 June 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

In the TT game a Mech cannot "Just Blow Up". The engine has to many safety feature involved. that is why at 30 point of Heat above yu heatsink capabilities you Mech will just shut down. As you go up the Heat Scale for your ammo to explode and you mech to shut down.

HEAT SCALE EFFECTS
30+ SHUTDOWN (PSC)
28 Ammo Explosion <=7
26 Shutdown <=9 (PSC)
25 -5 MP
24 +4 To-Hit
23 Ammo Explosion <=5
22 Shutdown <=7 (PSC)
20 -4 MP
19 Ammo Explosion <=3
18 Shutdown <=5 (PSC)
17 +3 To-Hit
15 -3 MP
14 Shutdown <=3 (PSC)
13 +2 To-Hit
10 -2 MP
08 +1 To-Hit
05 -1 MP

Shutdown is simply the end condition, read that list and think real hard about what it means. +3 to hit and -3 movement are midrange effects right. So your assault mech is now totally immobile unless it runs (another 2 heat) and you have additional to hit modifiers that will push medium to long rang shots or shots on fast/jumping mechs into auto-miss category. Sure you can keep slamming the alpha button but you're a sitting duck, you can't hit a damn thing and you get even hotter.
This is why the heat rules are important and should not be fiddled with or watered down. People who can keep their heads, stay calm and manage heat win - this is how it should be.

On TT if a mech has no ammo it doesn't explode. TBH I don't know what happens per the rule book if you go over 30 heat and override, no-one I played with was ever silly enough to do it and force us to look it up Pretty sure there was a pilot KO rule in there somewhere too

[Jun Watarase]

Expanded rules are made to use only with planet environments. It is almost impossible to get 30+ heat in a normal game, especially with double heatsinks.

[qki]

you've never been hit by a volley of infernos from a summoner G SRM4 launchers (packs six of them, that's 24 missiles in a volley).

And there are level 1 machines with heat problems (not everything is an oversinked weirdo like a SHD-2K), but agreed - going to 30 heat in a normal scenario doesn't happen much.


However - the TT game is built with all the weapons havingthe same recycle time - 1 round. When this changes, the heat/damagevalues need to be adjusted. Also, heat in TT is just calculated - movement+weapons-operational sinks. When you play in real time, heat dissipated is in per second values, while heat generated is on a per shot basis. Now assuming recycle times vary from weapon to weapon, they will not match the tabletop.


That is the reality of a real time videogame, versus a turn-based board game, quiaff?

[Alabamatick]

Aero Slasher, on 01 June 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

Will it 8 medium lasers when fired in an Alpha strike cause te reactor to go critical like in mw3 or will it be like mw4 and you can fire an Alpha strike without a meltdown?

8's nothing you want a minimum of 10 or 12

[Kazzamo]

Jun Watarase, on 05 June 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

Everything i predicted turned out to be true.

4 med lasers do the same damage as an AC20 but have no ammo limitations and weigh less (even with heatsinks factored in).

The 8 med laser hunchback is effectively a hunchback with 2 AC20s. That never run out of ammo.

100% accuracy for the win...just like MW4.

And you can apparently alpha strike 3 times with it before shutting down, since you don't take any penalties to movement or accuracy (unlike the tabletop, when going over 4 heat incurs penalties).

(To clarify, i'm not in the beta).

It's hardly 100% accuracy, you have to remember lasers are more of a damage over time effect in MWO. You have to keep the lasers all focused on one spot to do all that damage in one area otherwise you only do partial damage or end up spreading it across multiple sections of the enemy mech.

[Ratzap]

qki, on 05 June 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

you've never been hit by a volley of infernos from a summoner G SRM4 launchers (packs six of them, that's 24 missiles in a volley).

And there are level 1 machines with heat problems (not everything is an oversinked weirdo like a SHD-2K), but agreed - going to 30 heat in a normal scenario doesn't happen much.


However - the TT game is built with all the weapons havingthe same recycle time - 1 round. When this changes, the heat/damagevalues need to be adjusted. Also, heat in TT is just calculated - movement+weapons-operational sinks. When you play in real time, heat dissipated is in per second values, while heat generated is on a per shot basis. Now assuming recycle times vary from weapon to weapon, they will not match the tabletop.


That is the reality of a real time videogame, versus a turn-based board game, quiaff?

All these points have been brought up as something that MWO should address. Ie not just take it as read that MW[3,4] behaviour is what happens in MWO (or TT for that matter). The massive inferno bath could be taken care of by a limit of external heat sources meaning the devs can remove such boating to fry people. They can and will also have to match up the levels of button mashing in game with the various recycle times to whatever target level of influence they wish heat levels to play. So basically turn your calculation around and they could easily backport the TT rules to their system of heat gen and recycle times. This is easy for them to model - start game, run/jump while mashing alpha. See how long it takes to shutdown, adjust values and redo test until happy.

TL;DR
It comes down to what the devs want people to be able to do but personally I would prefer they modelled on TT rules.

[Jun Watarase]

Kazzamo, on 05 June 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

It's hardly 100% accuracy, you have to remember lasers are more of a damage over time effect in MWO. You have to keep the lasers all focused on one spot to do all that damage in one area otherwise you only do partial damage or end up spreading it across multiple sections of the enemy mech.

Keeping lasers focused on one spot is not exactly difficult, especially at pointblank range.

It's way harder to hit with a weapon that isn't hitscan, like say, SRMs or ACs.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 05 June 2012 - 04:32 AM.

[GreatHarlequin]

On a similar note, I wonder if some of the maps we play on will have enviromental effects? Like playing on/near an active volcano, or on a planet that is too close to its star, so EVERYONE starts off with say +2 heat. Or on an polar ice cap, where you start with -2 heat?

[Major Bill Curtis]

You fight a laser boat the same way you fight the Komodo (a laser boat), which in its stock 3053 configuration has 10 medium lasers: you outrun it and outrange it; if you're big enough, you swat it aside.

And yes, medium lasers are better than an AC/20 - always have been; always will be . . . a Gauss Rifle is also superior in every way, it turns out (the AC/20 is a crummy weapon - ever notice they stopped putting them on 'mechs after the Clans came? . . . the Ultra is a different story).

Then again, the guy standing there lighting up the battlefield and holding his lasers steadily on target at short range is probably a sitting duck, while the snap-shooting AC/20 'mech keeps moving.

8 medium lasers and the double heat sinks to handle them also cost over 100,000 more than an AC/20, at least in TT.

The first thing you should do to your Hunchback is drop the AC/20 and put a Gauss Rifle in it (and don't forget that the Hunchback also has a couple of medium lasers).

[Rodney28021]

wanderer, on 04 June 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Depends on how much of the TT heat scale they put in.

If they use the full heat scale, autoshutdown is the top of the list, automatic ammo explosion is slightly lower, and random system failures become very possible (basically, through-armor criticals) due to heat damage.

Eight medium lasers on a zero-heat 'Mech isn't going to cause it to explode, but it'd force a shutdown override. Eight ER mediums on a zero-heat 'Mech would likely force it into shutdown and a good chance of blowing an ammo bin if it has one, but neither will cause a 'Mech to go to pieces from one salvo.

I don't see how ammoless mechs are exploding from overheating, mechs are supposed to shutdown during overheating unless there is ammo inside then that is the reason.