188 replies to this topic

[Adridos]

The only way we could actually see into the legal side of things on the matter is if someone pretended to be considering buying their license for some F2P game.

... or less illegally, we would have to find a guy from CryTek playing the game (there was one, actually, long time ago), or someone who already had the "pleasure" of signing a contract with them.

Guessingwork won't get us really far as we need to find if what we'e asking for is at all possible.

[JuiceKeeper]

i like this radkos idea too, personaly i cant help too much with maps and this stuff at least not in hard coding etc (i am more graphics oriented person) but it might work. Hell it works in sc2 and arcade. People just create stuff upload it there and u can try it ingame. I think u can even pay for some of fan work there. anybody remember NWN? it was so modable that actualy that was the only think what keep players to play it for years which came becouse players created their own stuff there. Arma series from bohemia is same. They even creating DayZ which is purely TAW mode i think if i am correct. becouse it got like milion people start to play that mode.

[El Penguin]

I like the idea but I hope it goes through a strict run through with the devs to see if the map is up to quality. I know the community can make the same quality and sometimes even better quality maps than devs (CnC Generals had many Mods with overall better content) but theres always some people who try to slip there work in. For example with Dota 2, all the ugly low quality juggernaut masks that somehow got rated up and got into the game. To filter this they should do a community vote like someone here suggested. Or even map contests from time to time. That would work great I think!

Also sort of offtopic, does a fully working cryengine map really only take like 20 hours to make? I find myself spending more time on my source engine maps (I know the tools are horribly outdated and basic)

[Adridos]

El Penguin, on 26 March 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

For example with Dota 2, all the ugly low quality juggernaut masks that somehow got rated up and got into the game. To filter this they should do a community vote like someone here suggested. Or even map contests from time to time.

Actually, those masks got into the game exactly the same way... through a community vote.

Edited by Adridos, 26 March 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[El Penguin]

Adridos, on 26 March 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Actually, those maps got into the game exactly the same way... through a community vote.

Yep. That's why I think if the devs do this they need to strictly examine the winning entrees/up voted maps. If this is done then I fully support community made maps. I think it'd be cool if we had once a month a map contest with 1-3 winners. That way it's easier for them to check the top 3 winners each month and possibly if needed, fix up anything before releasing it.

[S3dition]

JuiceKeeper, on 26 March 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

i like this radkos idea too, personaly i cant help too much with maps and this stuff at least not in hard coding etc (i am more graphics oriented person) but it might work. Hell it works in sc2 and arcade. People just create stuff upload it there and u can try it ingame. I think u can even pay for some of fan work there. anybody remember NWN? it was so modable that actualy that was the only think what keep players to play it for years which came becouse players created their own stuff there. Arma series from bohemia is same. They even creating DayZ which is purely TAW mode i think if i am correct. becouse it got like milion people start to play that mode.

Neverwinter Nights was an insanely ambitious project that deserves every accolade it's achieved. It cost a fortune at a time when PC exclusive titles were flopping and everyone believed the PC would cease to exist as a gaming platform. The toolset and incredible ease of content production gave it an unnaturally long life. Servers continue to run, even today. The community has even built a fan hosted server browser since Gamespy was bought out and the old servers shut down.

However, content for the game cannot be sold or monetized, so it's radically different than user made content for a game like MWO.

[Syllogy]

There are major problems with having Community-Created maps:

• How may maps for every 100 submitted are actually a well-built map?
  
• How many of those have the proper geometry and code in place to work properly?
  
• How many of those are scaled properly?
  
• How many of those have been tested, re-tested, and balanced accordingly?

On top of that, there are also copyright issues:

• Are all of the textures used free of Copyright?
  
• Are all of the models used free of Copyright?
  
• Are any of the maps submitted based on maps from other games that have been Copyrighted?

And these are just the reasons that I can think of right off the top of my head.

If PGI were to (eventually) create a mapping tool that could be used with standard models and textures across the board, then that would be one thing, but the problem there is to create a mapping tool that would be supported by the CryEngine.

[S3dition]

Syllogy, on 26 March 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

There are major problems with having Community-Created maps:

• How may maps for every 100 submitted are actually a well-built map?
  
• How many of those have the proper geometry and code in place to work properly?
  
• How many of those are scaled properly?
  
• How many of those have been tested, re-tested, and balanced accordingly?

On top of that, there are also copyright issues:

• Are all of the textures used free of Copyright?
  
• Are all of the models used free of Copyright?
  
• Are any of the maps submitted based on maps from other games that have been Copyrighted?

And these are just the reasons that I can think of right off the top of my head.





If PGI were to (eventually) create a mapping tool that could be used with standard models and textures across the board, then that would be one thing, but the problem there is to create a mapping tool that would be supported by the CryEngine.

Or to simply create a toolkit that includes usable textures and some base models for static meshes. Again, CryEngine is not required for map development. You can create the entire map as one mesh and give it to them. They can very easily scale it inside of CryEngine. The problem becomes the coding, which nobody will be able to do, except for PGI.

I'm not sure why everyone is hung up on maps for crowd sourcing. It's the least viable product and a nightmare to manage for a game like MWO. I doubt the developers would even consider it unless a full market and creation to addition pipeline was completely sorted out for simple items. There are so many variables for map creation, it's not even worth talking about until we could see how the finished player market works.

Edited by S3dition, 26 March 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[Dr Killinger]

I think it boils down to quality assurance, and legal things. A map isn't just a pretty thing, loads and loads of testing goes into optimizing etc, and a majority chunk of the price is testing and revisions. And the legal issues... well, we all know what an absolute mess that is, especially when we consider that contributors might be from other countries. That's where the law gets very cumbersome and ugly.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this happen. I'd give anything to see this happen. If we can save PGI even 10% of that $250k, there can be no doubt that we'd all benefit... I just don't think it's as easy as people are making it out to be.

Edited by Dr Killinger, 26 March 2013 - 07:29 AM.

[Liam Neeson]

bumping for great justice

[Adridos]

Dr Killinger, on 26 March 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this happen. I'd give anything to see this happen. If we can save PGI even 10% of that $250k, there can be no doubt that we'd all benefit... I just don't think it's as easy as people are making it out to be.

Any kind of community driven content would be nice.

Heck, as I said, it could technically work even just to conscriptize a few of the modellers from around here, give them orthos and you'd have the hi-quality versions of mechs in no time. Variants and other things could be solved once they get to actually making that mech, but every piece helps and spares money for them.

Just look at Joe's work:
http://mwomercs.com/...igged-variants/
http://mwomercs.com/...63#entry1799863

Given the real orthos, he'd have the mech meshes done in no time and if given the instructions, him, or any of the many great 3D modellers from the community could make the in-game versions in a really small time and with no prices attached. They get acknowledged for their work by some means and we don't even have to deal with CryTek and their supposably crappy license terms.

The changing weapons on mechs is also mostly a lot of mechanical work. The code is there and all we need is FD's visualisations of the said changes to make the weapons themselves.

Edited by Adridos, 26 March 2013 - 07:43 AM.

[Dr Killinger]

Yeah, like I said, I want it to happen, but legally I don't think they can. If they could, and followed in the footsteps of Valve (who can do it because they made their engine), it would be quite a radical step up for free to play games.

[Adridos]

Dr Killinger, on 26 March 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

If they could, and followed in the footsteps of Valve it would be quite a radical step up for free to play games.

Not much of a radical step as it really won't differ from Valve at all.

However, if someone made a game and then let other company crush his monopoly to create lots of new items for the game itself, then that would be a really radical change. But, you know, monopoly is the best thing to get into if you are the one controlling it. That's why F2P games are suddenly so popular and that won't happen.

Not that it's needed, anyway. Even getting CryTek to allow us to do this would be more than enough.

[Tice Daurus]

Guys I just wanted to say in the past 24 hours, I understand that the Bryan and Russ are coming back in from PAX so I can understand them not answering this right away. We need to keep this topic popular and hopefully they'll see this. I've been trying to keep my eye on it, but so far I haven't seen any developers jump on here to read this yet.

I agree our biggest hurdles are going to be legal issues, quality assurance and if anything else setting up a proper system to have our maps reviewed my the developers and dealing with Crytek with the CryEngine so we could get the software to help create and design the maps. Again, I'm patiently waiting to see if we can get ANY of the dev's to come forward and answer our questions on this highly important topic. I think in 24 hours to get 90+ likes and getting the amount of views for people to post here and agree so far has been telling that I think we're on the correct logical path here, yet it all depends on what obstacles we'd have to overcome to make this a reality.

Keep posting those ideas guys! We want to hear them!

[Allfex]

Had an idea in therms o f the license issue.

What is when PGI announces a map competition... the first price is maybe a "one month work and travel" to PGI'S headquater. The mapper can use the free sdk like i did to test the things he created, content, textures and so on, put the progress online and if he wins he travels to PGI with his content like heighmaps, textures, meshes and uses PGI'S tools to rebuild the map.

The above mentioned contend is created maybe in max, photoshop, worldmaschine and so on. Dont know if testing assets with the free engine and finally put it in with PGI'S licence-tools is "legal" on this way.

[Adridos]

Well, that's really some creative thinking, but I doubt anyone would partke in that.

[Nightfangs]

/BUMP for great idea that really should be implemented

[Tice Daurus]

Allfex, on 26 March 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Had an idea in therms o f the license issue.

What is when PGI announces a map competition... the first price is maybe a "one month work and travel" to PGI'S headquater. The mapper can use the free sdk like i did to test the things he created, content, textures and so on, put the progress online and if he wins he travels to PGI with his content like heighmaps, textures, meshes and uses PGI'S tools to rebuild the map.

The above mentioned contend is created maybe in max, photoshop, worldmaschine and so on. Dont know if testing assets with the free engine and finally put it in with PGI'S licence-tools is "legal" on this way.

As much as that would be cool, I think that would be possibly construded as compensation for work if you won first prize, Allfex. And the legal ramifications wouldn't come back to haunt them. I think if we as a community were to do this, the only compensation would be for us to get recognition that we helped create the map in name only.

[hammerreborn]

You know, if I had any sort of design skill, talent, imagination, coding experience, or any artistic ability whatsoever, the map I would make would be like something out of natural selection, with a giant expansive tunnel arrangement only lights would be able to fit in and manuever and be sneaky all around the map.

[Allfex]

Tice Daurus, on 26 March 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

As much as that would be cool, I think that would be possibly construded as compensation for work if you won first prize, Allfex. And the legal ramifications wouldn't come back to haunt them. I think if we as a community were to do this, the only compensation would be for us to get recognition that we helped create the map in name only.

Yeah...you are 100% right with this but as i said earlyer... to make a good map it is essentiell to work with playable mechs while working on the map. I'm a total noob with cry-engine but have "some" experience with unreal. For both i MUST be able to jump instand in the game with the playermodel its done for.
For myself i jump ingame all the time and i'm sure any other mapper does the same.

Yes, i can make heightmaps, textures, assets...port it to the engine, put particleeffects, weather in and so on. at the end you have a nice looking vista but sure not a playable map without acces to the mechs.

Sadly i see no other way because PGI wont give you there version of the editor with playable mechs

Edit: And with the playable mechs it comes all the code for the game... this is PGI'S "Holy Grail".

Edit 2: I think in another way to help PGI... cockpit-items... they are cheap and very fast to produce. There are so many "clans" out there. Would it be cool if all the "Clan"-members can get there clanspecific cockpit-item? for maybe *insert MC-Value here*? You dont need the cryengine for that.

I would totally buy this items to show my clan in the cockpit!

Edited by Allfex, 26 March 2013 - 11:29 AM.