24 replies to this topic

[Papar]

Hello everyone.
I would like to give you my opinion regarding heat vision and why I think it should be completely changed.

BAD POINTS OF CURRENT HEAT VISION

To begin with, the current heat vision has some problems like:

• Since it is almost always the best choise of vision to have, it makes other types of visions useless.
  
• It ruins stealth because even if a mech has ECM and tries to approach your team in a less obvious way than the common one, it can easily be noticed with heat vision.
  
• It completely counters the ways that some maps have to reduce your situational awareness and thus making the game more interesting(Snowstorm,Fog,possibly Sandstorm in the future desert map).

HOW I THINK IT SHOULD BE CHANGED

I believe heat vision shouldn't be something from which you benefit from having it enabled in the entire match but rather something that you turn on, see what you want to see and then turn it off. Here's how this will be achived:
Firstly, the heat vision's ability to show the ground and structures should be drastically reduced. The heat vision should be able to show them up to a distance of about 100m because they do not emit the same heat
Secondly, will not be able to show mechs have not heated and are far (~400m) but as they shoot more weapons and start to emit more heat, they will become increasingly more visible (even behind structures at very close range). Also, if a mech overheats, its shape will be faintly visible in a yellow sphere through the heat vision so you will not be able tell what mech it will be (unless if you make an estimation of how many tons in weights based no the size of the sphere).
Finally, the effectiveness of heat vision will be dependant on the map. For example, in a cold map due to the environment being cool, heat vision will be unable to show anything other than the enemy mech which will also be more easily noticable since the heat difference between them and the environment will be high. Likewise in a hot map, the environment will be more visible but enemy mechs will be harder to distinguish.

Edited by Papar, 02 March 2013 - 01:20 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Make it a module, and make it a darker blue when the mechs are cold they are harder to see.

[Firesteel]

Make it like chromehounds' heat vision and we're good:
No range
no detail
your world is blue with some highlights if the enemy is close enough.
I would post a picture, but there are none.

[Kargarok]

Sounds like you pretty much just described how heat vision currently works... Only you want it to be more extreme than it is currently implemented. I find heat vision to be fine as it is. But then I am primarily a brawler. I only want to flash it on and off to find ecm guarded mechs or see through snowstorms. I definitely DO NOT want it on while brawling. Enemy and friendly mechs turn into a tangled mass of colors and it's tricky to know when to fire without hitting a friendly.

That said, I suppose I could maybe deal with it being a bit less clear, current technology (search for infrared vision images) seems to range from fairly pixelated to pretty darn clear. So here's my suggestion. Tone the resolution down a bit on heat vision. Not so much as to be useless for info gathering but enough so it will be hard to snipe in this vision mode. THEN put a module in that can sharpen the resolution. Give it several levels which makes it sharper and sharper. The high cost both XP and Cbills should be prohibitive enough that we won't see it all the time. Plus this will represent upgrading your heat sensors To as good or better than today's tech. If this is still too powerful you could make it take up two module slots. This will limit the number of mechs that could take it until they got their master unlocks.

Edited by Kargarok, 01 March 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Stringburka]

I agree heat vision is a bit too good, especially when compared to night vision at river city night.

The OP's suggestion might work, another solution would be to make it work more like a "radar" that only updates say every .5 seconds. Useful for spotting, not very useful in combat.

[Zyllos]

There is two major things they need to add to Thermal Vision (and indirectly Night Vision):

Make it a module.

Reduce the range in which mechs will display in the vision mode.

Thermal Vision is good at close ranges for visually spotting mechs while Night Vision is much better at spotting at distance.

Edited by Zyllos, 01 March 2013 - 12:33 PM.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

I have to admit I use thermal on almost every map now. Kinda sucks!

[Garrath]

Sounds like an ECMer is unhappy that there's one thing in the game that can see through his magical cloak of invisibility. Next someone will want it undetectable to the naked eye.

[Papar]

Kargarok, on 01 March 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Sounds like you pretty much just described how heat vision currently works...

Why do you say that? The heat vision I suggested and the one currently in the game are completely different the way I see it. Unless if you were referring to Firesteel's post.

Garrath, on 01 March 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Sounds like an ECMer is unhappy that there's one thing in the game that can see through his magical cloak of invisibility. Next someone will want it undetectable to the naked eye.

Not actually. Only 1 out of 8 of my mechs has ECM. I wanted to see how having an ECM is so I bought the cheapest one (commando) but now that I see I cannot be as stealthy as I wanted (which is what I liked best about it), I do not use it as often. Plus, what I said regarding the ECM is just one of my points and not even the most important one in my opinion which is the third.

Zyllos, on 01 March 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

There is two major things they need to add to Thermal Vision (and indirectly Night Vision):

Make it a module.

Reduce the range in which mechs will display in the vision mode.

Thermal Vision is good at close ranges for visually spotting mechs while Night Vision is much better at spotting at distance.

That would only solve part of the problem but is also much easier to implement. Maybe if the developers decided to change the heat vision the way I think is best, this would be the first update.

Regarding making Heat vision a module, I think that if it were to become one, it should be very expensive because it gives you a huge advantage over the other players.

Thanks for all your suggestions/opinions everyone.

Edit: Turned the topic into a poll.

Edited by Papar, 02 March 2013 - 01:21 AM.

[Torquemada]

Totally agree. Ideally heat vision should lose resolution beyond e.g 400m as you suggest. In River City if I start in lower I always use heat to see which way the other team goes even though its about 1.5km away. Also night vision needs reworking so its a better option than currently.

The other things that could be included to make heat slightly less desirable is interference from your own mechs heat. My idea would be:

At 25% heat - heat vision becomes blurred.
At 50% heat - heat vision is blurred and glitches (sudden jars and error lines across it)
at 75%+ heat - heat vision whites out meaning you completely lose visibility until you turn it off or cool down.

Edited by Torquemada, 02 March 2013 - 01:57 AM.

[Demon Horde]

Papar, on 02 March 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

Why do you say that? The heat vision I suggested and the one currently in the game are completely different the way I see it. Unless if you were referring to Firesteel's post.



Not actually. Only 1 out of 8 of my mechs has ECM. I wanted to see how having an ECM is so I bought the cheapest one (commando) but now that I see I cannot be as stealthy as I wanted (which is what I liked best about it), I do not use it as often. Plus, what I said regarding the ECM is just one of my points and not even the most important one in my opinion which is the third.



That would only solve part of the problem but is also much easier to implement. Maybe if the developers decided to change the heat vision the way I think is best, this would be the first update.

Regarding making Heat vision a module, I think that if it were to become one, it should be very expensive because it gives you a huge advantage over the other players.

Thanks for all your suggestions/opinions everyone.

Edit: Turned the topic into a poll.

yep you pretty much just agreed with the guy about a ECMer wanting to be stealthier. "but now that I see I cannot be as stealthy as I wanted"


first off ECM was NEVER a "stealth" piece of equipment originally. it's main function is to scramble missle locks and this HAS been the main function of ECM since the old battle tech pnp game. It's mild stealth functioning , is something that MWO added. If any thing the ECM should be less powerful than it is here to be closer to battle tech old school , and it should lack ANY stelath functions. fact is no piece of equiment in battle tech was ever "stealth" epuipment out side of passive radar which effectively blinded the user as much as it blinded the enemy mechs.

mechwarrior is not a stealth game period , its a game about big A-- robots blowing stuff up and pounding on other big robots. if you want a stealth game go play assassin's creed or star trek online (klingons got cloaks). in short the thermal vision is FINE AS IS.

[Aim64C]

Thermal vision is fine.

You have very little depth perception with it, and it's not always clear what you're looking at (Atlas or Centurion? ... Friendly or Enemy? ...)

And for the record, lrn2stealth. If they have line of sight on you, you're doing it wrong. You want mechs to be rolling listen checks.

[Cathal Witwemacher]

Heat vision gives you NO detail at range. It merely indicate line-on-sight. You can't make out a damn thing and I run MAX graphics. Additionally, I think you are purposefully ignoring the heat plumes in the Cauldron level that COMPLETELY MASK any mech heat signature that is behind them. You'd probably loose your mind if they also implemented magscan in this game, even though it is completely canon.

[Satan n stuff]

There are plenty of spots where a mech can hide from thermal vision even though they would be easily spotted in normal view, however I think the advantage thermal gives at range is a bit ridiculous on maps with low visibility. It shouldn't even be realistically possible for thermal to pick up mechs 1 KM away in a blizzard.

[Aim64C]

Demon Horde, on 02 March 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

first off ECM was NEVER a "stealth" piece of equipment originally. it's main function is to scramble missle locks and this HAS been the main function of ECM since the old battle tech pnp game. It's mild stealth functioning , is something that MWO added.

Not exactly. MechWarrior 4 stripped ECM of its jamming capability and made it reduce effecitve sensor ranges.

MechCommander 2 also used ECM to cloud non-LOS detection.

Quote

If any thing the ECM should be less powerful than it is here to be closer to battle tech old school , and it should lack ANY stelath functions.

I'm not so sure I agree with this. I think ECM's umbrella effects need to be tuned down a bit - and/or the various fucntions split into at least three different modes (so that ECM cannot be a "set-and-forget" system).

Quote

fact is no piece of equiment in battle tech was ever "stealth" epuipment out side of passive radar which effectively blinded the user as much as it blinded the enemy mechs.

This is incorrect:

http://www.sarna.net...i/Stealth_Armor

Quote

mechwarrior is not a stealth game period , its a game about big A-- robots blowing stuff up and pounding on other big robots. if you want a stealth game go play assassin's creed or star trek online (klingons got cloaks).

This, I will disagree with. Stealth is a valid tactic in any combat environment. That which does not know you are there is not going to be shooting at you. Being able to break contact and avoid detection allows you to choose when and where to fight - which means you fight only when it is advantageous to you, and ideally disadvantageous to the enemy.

I refuse to sit and watch someone reduce the art of combat to "It's about big robots wrestling in the mud and snow!"

It's about killing things. You afford your enemy no quarter, no advantage, and no mercy.

Quote

in short the thermal vision is FINE AS IS.

This, I do agree with.

[M0rpHeu5]

ECM opness has poisoned so many opinions.
Option 2 then is remove every weather effect that reduse visibility (sarcasm)

[Ialdabaoth]

Making 'mechs easier to see in thermal the higher their heat is would be a nice start. Also, making thermal blurrier and harder to use the higher YOUR heat is would be nice.

[Stringburka]

One option would be to make heat vision less efficient the more heated up you are yourself. Like, an overlay that gets redder and redder the higher heat you have, since your own heat masks the surrounding's.

Cathal Witwemacher, on 02 March 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

Heat vision gives you NO detail at range. It merely indicate line-on-sight. You can't make out a damn thing and I run MAX graphics.

At 1500 meters, a light 'mech IS a detail. And it's hard to spot for someone with mediocre eyesight with normal vision, but extremely easy with heat vision. Easy enough that I can AC-2 spam them with no issues.

[Deathlike]

There's kinda something wrong to it being very useful vs far away targets... in the sense that something that far away has their heat being easily spotted vs something relatively close to you, where heat detection should be more apparent and more obvious with thermal vision.

If the target far away is overheating, then sure, it should light up like a Christmas tree, otherwise, it should be somewhat of a blur.

I also don't see problems with changing the mechanics of this feature when you are overheating.. because last I checked it is part of the electronics... night vision on the other hand tends to blind me.

[Valorcalls]

The problem with ECM is this simple. It should not make it impossible to target you or find you without a short range LoS. That is not a Guardian ECM. Solution? make it only (and i mean ONLY) slow targeting locks of SSRM and LRM by 200% (4 times longer to lock).

The problem with Thermal is not that it is "to strong" or "to good". I have personally used Thermal units (as an NROTC cadet in field training) that works very closely to MWO. The only difference is it becomes very hard to tell distance. I would expect that over the course of 1000+ years they would find a way to fix that. Solution? make it a module.