15 replies to this topic

[Zyllos]

Their are many threads in General, Game Balance, and Suggestion subforums, regarding weapon convergence. Interestingly, someone mentioned something that kinda struck me:

NinetyProof, on 26 March 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Alpha Strike = Pin Point Damage = Win

This issue has nothing to do with "cheese builds" or "double heat sinks".

It has everything to do with killing a mech by creating a weakspot on a mech, then exploiting that weak spot. it's much easier to hit 1 spot on a mech, if you alpha ... but much harder if your chain firing.

Also, the issue also has to do with spreading incoming damage to multiple areas of your own armor. If you alpha, you can then swing your torso around to spread out incoming damage, versus having to keep your torso *steady* to maintain pinpoint accuracy on the weak spot.

Alpha strikes are the most efficient way to not only create/exploit weak spots on opponents as well as make your weak spot a moving targets.

This has nothing to do with double heat sinks ... it has everything to do with killing quickly, while trying not to be killed.

Alpha Strikes have built in heat penalties ... even if that were increased, it would not stop Alphas. It would have to be an extreme increase and for what reason?

The reality is that if you got rid of Alpha's and chain fire was the norm, you would end up with more core'ing going on cause more people would hold their torso's still, which makes them a easier target to find, strip, core, kill.

Typical "Liberal" mindset ... propose restrictions to stop a "perceived" problem and end up create worse issues. Just stop.

Disclaimer: When I say "chain firing" I also mean group firing in a chain fashion.

As you can tell from this post, his argument about why alpha striking is superior is it gives all the advantages without any of the drawbacks, except for adding heat all at one time.

This is my suggestion, why not balance Alpha Strikes and Chain Firing?

Alpha Strike -
Pros:
Allows for minute control of torso facing before/after firing.
Allows easier movement control and controlling when to fire while changing movement directions.

Cons:
Adds heat all at the same time.
Weapons do not all land in the same spot.

Chain Firing -
Pros:
Allows for pin-point targeting against your target.
Allows more control of heat when firing.

Cons:
Requires torso to face the target when continuing to fire.
Harder to control movement and keep pin-point damage going.

Ignoring on how you achieve the above, would it not be better to balance Alpha Strikes and Chain Firing instead of Alpha Striking always being just straight better in almost every situation? The only time Alpha Strikes are bad is if using one would shut you down.

So I figured I would bring this up.

***EDIT: I will abstain from voting my own thread.***

Edited by Zyllos, 26 March 2013 - 08:05 PM.

[Zyllos]

Bumping for exposure.

[Zyllos]

Sorry, I got to bump. 37 views and 1 vote...no posts.

[PapaKilo]

No, it wouldn't be better. Why? Because you cannot even hope to balance them.

A lot of 'Mechs cannot Alpha without having half the weapons miss due to different weapon types and lead times/distances.

An Alpha is only better if you can hit the target. The longer the range, the less likely an Alpha will out-damage a Chain.

If you simply stand at 10 paces and fire until one 'Mech is dead, then yes, Chain bows to Alpha every time.

Balance the weapons. How we choose to move our 'Mechs and fire our weapons is our business, and PGI should have no say in it.

[Syllogy]

You know that by posting this all over the forums that you are only diluting actual respondents, and not gaining any chance to be seen by the devs?

They pay people full-time to scour the forums all day, collect data, posts, ideas, and suggestions to put them into a format to be evaluated, and (with discretion) pass them onto the Devs.

So once Viterbi and miSs see all 12 of your posts about the same thing, they will just discount it as an idea already passed. The only thing you do is water-down the amount of responses to your suggestion.

[Zyllos]

PapaKilo, on 27 March 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

No, it wouldn't be better. Why? Because you cannot even hope to balance them.

A lot of 'Mechs cannot Alpha without having half the weapons miss due to different weapon types and lead times/distances.

An Alpha is only better if you can hit the target. The longer the range, the less likely an Alpha will out-damage a Chain.

If you simply stand at 10 paces and fire until one 'Mech is dead, then yes, Chain bows to Alpha every time.

Balance the weapons. How we choose to move our 'Mechs and fire our weapons is our business, and PGI should have no say in it.

So you say that because of mix of weaponry types, thus different leading times needed to hit where you want to fire, that alpha striking and chain firing can never be balanced?

What about mechs that just ignore the hardpoints that mess with these leading times, thus circumventing the issue, so that they can alpha strike all those weapons at the same time onto the same point even though the weapons are of different types (PPC and Gauss Rifle are two good examples)?

[Galenit]

In a missile discussion i made a suggestion because of boating them.
Seems that if fit to this topic too:

Firing more then 1 weapon of 1 weapontype (energy, missile, ballistic) at 1 time adds 1 heat to it.
Firing 1 missile, 1 energy and one ballistic does nothing as chainfiring nothing changes but
Firing 2 weapons adds 0+1 heat.
Firing 3 weapons adds 0+1+2=3 heat
Firing 4 weapons adds 0+1+2+3=6 heat
Firing 5 weapons adds 0+1+2+3+4= 10 heat
Firing 6 weapons adds 0+1+2+3+4+5=15 heat
.....

[Protection]

Galenit, on 27 March 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

In a missile discussion i made a suggestion because of boating them.
Seems that if fit to this topic too:

Firing more then 1 weapon of 1 weapontype (energy, missile, ballistic) at 1 time adds 1 heat to it.
Firing 1 missile, 1 energy and one ballistic does nothing as chainfiring nothing changes but
Firing 2 weapons adds 0+1 heat.
Firing 3 weapons adds 0+1+2=3 heat
Firing 4 weapons adds 0+1+2+3=6 heat
Firing 5 weapons adds 0+1+2+3+4= 10 heat
Firing 6 weapons adds 0+1+2+3+4+5=15 heat
.....

That is so painfully artificial. And it would just drive alpha strike builds back toward the Gauss. Plus it wouldn't do much for the Alpha Strike King - the 3D Poptart with 2 ERPPC + Gauss. +3 or +6 heat isn't going to make a big difference when the guy with four medium lasers is at +10.

[Gaan Cathal]

Protection, on 27 March 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

That is so painfully artificial. And it would just drive alpha strike builds back toward the Gauss. Plus it wouldn't do much for the Alpha Strike King - the 3D Poptart with 2 ERPPC + Gauss. +3 or +6 heat isn't going to make a big difference when the guy with four medium lasers is at +10.

Well yeah, because we all know the Real Enemy is Boating. Horrible, evil, commie Boats, under your bed.

[StalaggtIKE]

It's a suggestion. I don't really agree because I feel that heat is the cause of the problem. In MW2, you didn't go around alpha striking because you would surely over heat. Once you upgrade to DHS, you're set and heat becomes very manageable.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 27 March 2013 - 08:52 PM.

[Fiellienn]

I totally don't see a thing. Balance fire styles?
Due to no reactor overheat damage, why should I not use Alpha-strikes all day?

Remember back in MW3 when you picked an Avatar, loaded it with a ton of MLasers and all other slots gone to DHS',
Then use Alpha-strike once at 0% heat - KABOOOM!!! A shiny crater =/
Reactor just explodes, immediate meltdown, even if the overheating override is off. The heat pike was WAY too hight to manage.
So I had to think twice before use an Alpha.

I would really want to know what about that:
1) you're at energy-only build
(no matter the size of heat sinks, they must control dissipation of heat, not amount of heat gained with each shot)
2) Your Alpha gives about 60% heat level. Even if just for a second. (then dropped down due to heatsink efficiency)

IF you are some reason 96% overheated, and fire all barrels at once (a pretty common thing) - will your reactor handle that heat spike ok?
Thats about 156% of its heat capabilities. And 56% more than its safety-zone.

[Fox News Channel]

Protection, on 27 March 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

That is so painfully artificial. And it would just drive alpha strike builds back toward the Gauss. Plus it wouldn't do much for the Alpha Strike King - the 3D Poptart with 2 ERPPC + Gauss. +3 or +6 heat isn't going to make a big difference when the guy with four medium lasers is at +10.

So why not make it proportional to the damage of the weapons. For example Ppc gains +1 and medium lasers gain +0.1

[PapaKilo]

Zyllos, on 27 March 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

So you say that because of mix of weaponry types, thus different leading times needed to hit where you want to fire, that alpha striking and chain firing can never be balanced?

I'm saying that even if it was necessary, it would be impossible.

It's not necessary. Just like balancing heat sinks. Or balancing the maps. They were never meant to be balanced, and never should be.

[Zyllos]

PapaKilo, on 28 March 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

I'm saying that even if it was necessary, it would be impossible.

It's not necessary. Just like balancing heat sinks. Or balancing the maps. They were never meant to be balanced, and never should be.

I have given a situation that is balanced. It's just in another thread: Weapon Convergence is Leading to Game Imbalance

Basically, individual weapons do not converge. Arms point their weapons on the Arm crosshair, thus converging weaponry, but torso weapons land inside a matrix based on their relative position on the torso. Thus, if a weapon is mounted on the center left from the middle of the mech, the weapon land in the middle left of the Torso crosshair.

This makes most weapons hit in slightly different locations (thus alpha striking will never converge most weapons) but chain firing groups of logically located weapons (all in the left bottom torso or 2 lasers in the center torso), you can aim the groups individually as they are fired onto a location, like you can now.

[Zyllos]

Bring this back to the fore front. I am seeing more threads/suggestions asking/suggesting the very same thing.

[ivanuco]

I have one suggestion for Streak SRM2.

I should be able to fire the streak srm2 without locking an enemy, as if it were a simple SRM2. Why? Because when I mount it and I want to use it against a mech with ECM, I'm unable. No weapon should be useless if you fire it in the right range.

So my suggestion is the ability to fire the Streak SRM2 without locking an enemy.

Maybe for the next patch?

Thanks

Edited by ivanuco, 09 April 2013 - 03:44 AM.