60 replies to this topic

[Caboose30]

We are all frustrated when we round a corner and are dead in one or two shots. Sure, it's game legal, and the AC20 by itself isn't overpowered, but these mechs that can throw two on and have tons of ammo are. Change the hardpoints? No, that breaks an intelligent design. Nerf the AC20? No, because it's a well designed weapon. How about we make it work like it did in MW3, and how lasers do right now - have it do a variation of Damage over Time.

In MW3 when you used any autocannon, it launched multiple smaller shells. The higher the rating, the more shells it launched. This would be a straight forward way to increase the skill needed to operate such a mech, and make headshots against a moving, jumping, firing target much more rare.

The PPC Stalker is equally annoying, but the PPC and ER PPC are very well balanced now. How to solve the insta-kill Alpha Strike? Again, let's look to MW3. MW3 had this neat heat mechanic where if it rose past a certain point, you died. Right now if it rises past a certain point, you shutdown until you cool down, no matter how high it went - unless you override the shutdown, then you can die. I had a six PPC Daishi on MW3 once, and when I alpha'd, it blew up immediately - no matter how many heat sinks I had on it. So lets do that. That will put an end to this "OMG, I'MMA ALPHA YOU AT POINT BLANK SO YOU CAN'T DODGE IT!" ridiculousness.

The weapons are very well balanced, the hardpoint system is as well, and boating Streaks and LRMs is no longer as effective as it used to be. Next in line is reducing the effectiveness of boating ballistics - the gauss has pretty much been taken care of, so the large caliber ACs are next, and then lasers. Don't cry, I have two laser boats, but they kill things *really* easily. Boating lasers is pretty much taken care of because no matter what, you can't sustain fire very long. With the new coolshot, I think there needs to be a cooldown if you equip more than one, so you can't just keep firing willy-nilly and use them both one right after the other.

Edited by JuiceCaboose, 27 March 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[MuadXDib]

I wouldn't say these things are unbalanced, just don't walk right up to them and let them shoot you in the face.

[FromHell2k]

MuadXDib, on 27 March 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

I wouldn't say these things are unbalanced, just don't walk right up to them and let them shoot you in the face.

True, true..

I don't get your POV OP,
AC/20 > 270m effective range
PPC > HOT!
GR > Fragile as glass
SRM > 270m, inacurate.

These weapons are the bad, bad, baaaahaddd "alpha-cheese-qq-stuff".

You can be 1shotted by the stock HBK-4P...Should they remove it cause it's boating MLas?

[RoboPatton]

I agree with one thing you said, and that's about Over Heating in MWO. There's little reason to fear it. Sure, you're unable to fight for a bit, but in a stalker *shrug* no big deal. You can probably do 3 alphas against a couple of mediums and still come out alive.

They need to bring back the random damage variable, such as debuffs or potential to do long term damage when you OH. And yes, if it gets high enough ammo detination should be a factor or internal/weapons damage.

As it stands nobody has much reason to fear overheating, unless they are A ) In a light, B ) completely surrounded, C ) nearly cored.

Edited by RoboPatton, 28 March 2013 - 12:38 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

LOWER THE HEATCAP!!!!!

[Chino]

Every weapon being boated is op (mb other than mg and flamer). Game would be more interesting with only stock configs of w/o dual heat sinks

[Sturmforge]

I like the idea that if you overheat your mech past a certain point, even if you do not use override, you take some damage like you did use override and overheated by the same amount. Shutdown stops you from building more heat. It should not stop damage to your mech if you exceed that threshold.

[Syllogy]

Haus, unless you are piloting a Light Mech, or you get Headshot, a 6PPC Stalker cannot 1-Shot you.

Chino, on 28 March 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

Every weapon being boated is op (mb other than mg and flamer). Game would be more interesting with only stock configs of w/o dual heat sinks

Sure, you go ahead and try Trial mechs then. Let me know how that works out for you on the "Fun" scale.

The "Boating Problem" has been brought up time and time again, and one thing remains constant: It's not considered a problem by people that understand their weaknesses.

Instead of griping about these builds, learn to adapt and defeat them. A Balanced Build is more dangerous than any boat.

Edited by Syllogy, 28 March 2013 - 05:07 AM.

[Banditman]

Syllogy, on 28 March 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

Haus, unless you are piloting a Light Mech, or you get Headshot, a 6PPC Stalker cannot 1-Shot you.

Sure it can. So long as there is full armor penetration with one shot, there is the possibility of being killed by that shot due to ammo explosion. Six PPC's can completely remove armor from mediums and get to internals in one salvo, meaning that mech can be killed in one shot.

Even a Dragon can be armor breached in one salvo from six PPC's.

[Mypa333]

I'm driving a Spider SDR 5D and I love destroying boats of any sort, except Hunchies 4P, 4PS that have too many lasers.

But, I do agree with JuiceCaboose. Doing an AlphaStrike should definetely disable the mech for a longer lenght. Or much simple, the weapons explode.

Edited by Mypa333, 28 March 2013 - 05:29 AM.

[Comassion]

MuadXDib, on 27 March 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

I wouldn't say these things are unbalanced, just don't walk right up to them and let them shoot you in the face.

Unless it's the standard PPC stalker, in which case, walk right up to it and let it shoot you in the face.

[Syllogy]

Banditman, on 28 March 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

Sure it can. So long as there is full armor penetration with one shot, there is the possibility of being killed by that shot due to ammo explosion. Six PPC's can completely remove armor from mediums and get to internals in one salvo, meaning that mech can be killed in one shot.

Even a Dragon can be armor breached in one salvo from six PPC's.

If you are putting Ammo in your torso, that's your fault. You should have put it elsewhere, or used CASE.

In any case, my 6 Large Laser Stalker does more average damage per match than my 6 PPC Stalker.

For reference: 6PPC Stalker can do 2 Alphas to Overheat with a moderate spread (it ain't pinpoint, sorry) at 120pts of damage, 6 LL can do 162pts of pinpoint damage before overheating, and dissipates heat much quicker.

[HammerSwarm]

I would support weapons "melting" in an overheat scenario. I don't need my mech to suddenly explode Mw3 style.maybe at 120% of the heat threshold the offending weapons began damaging the components they are in even when shutdown. That way a 6 ppc stalker could start to melt itself and disable all of it's weapons at once.

[Deathlike]

HammerSwarm, on 28 March 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

I would support weapons "melting" in an overheat scenario. I don't need my mech to suddenly explode Mw3 style.maybe at 120% of the heat threshold the offending weapons began damaging the components they are in even when shutdown. That way a 6 ppc stalker could start to melt itself and disable all of it's weapons at once.

I would actually like the idea that energy weapons would be taking some bits of damage to their HP when the mech is massively overheating. It would have a similar effect to penalties with ammo based weaponry (ballistics and missiles). The longer a mech is above 100% and shut down, the more likely the energy weapon will take damage, to the point of destruction.

This may actually alleviate the issues of having being completely reckless with energy based weapons. You literally have to force cooldown on mechs that overheat crazily instead of the final alpha that they would try to pull w/o any significant consequences.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 March 2013 - 09:30 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Overheating should certainly do more damage to the Mech, and it should certainly cook off ammo sooner then it does, or damage Internals and Components faster.

Edited by Praetor Shepard, 28 March 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[Eternal Hunter]

the 6ppc stalker isn't an issue. Annoying yes, but that's about it.

[Shibas]

Those mechs already balance themselves out with their loadout. Boomcat is slow as hell, in a chassis with a relatively easy head shot, and can usually leg it pretty fast. The splatcat has a max range of 270m, and outside 200 it's just a blob of damage. Not to mention two big ol' boxes for arms that easy to shoot off. The 6ppc stalker fires what, 2-3 times before overheating? Then it becomes a fire and shutdown mech. As well, it's slow, poor torso movement and inside 90 does weaker and weaker damage.

There is no "end all be all" of mech design or build. No matter how a mech is built, it always has to give up something; whether it's speed, damage, utility, armor, or heat.

[HarmAssassin]

I would very much like to see a system in which going over 100% heat has other effects. Some suggestions just off the top of my head:

110% heat weapon cooldown times increased by 5%
115% heat Mech top speed reduced by 10% until heat drops below 80%
120% heat 3% chance of engine explosion 97% chance of engine damage (10% reduction in top speed till end of match)
125% heat 18% chance of engine explosion 82% chance of engine damage (10% reduction in top speed till end of match)
130% heat 36% chance of engine explosion, 64% chance of engine damage, 40% chance of ammo explosion or energy weaponry taking damage

etc

150% heat = 50% chance of engine explosion, speed reduced automatically until end of match, cockpit takes damage (to simulate pilot taking damage from too much heat).

Anyway you get the idea. Each would be cumulative, but only applied once per second. That way if you fire 8 weapons at the same time, it applies the heat points then checks to see what the effects are. As the mech cools, it doesn't check again until the player fires. You can also apply all lower levels of effect to the higher numbers (if the mech goes from 80% to 130%, then it experiences all effects up to and including 130% at the same time).

Obviously I these are just off the top of my head, so they need more work, but this would discourage obviously flawed builds where the pilot has full intention of just firing, overheating, firing, overheating, etc.

[Jay Z]

I see absolutely no problem in any way shape or form with any boating build. A splatcat can be decimated by LLs and long range weapons as well as smart lights. A 2xAC20 Jager only fires once every 4 seconds so they can be easily out manoeuvred and often have less armor and more exposed ammo or are slow. A 6PPC stalker overheats very easily and cannot turn fast so a light or med can backstab it extremely easily. Each of these builds has particular strengths but by being overspecialised, they fall easily if not protected. I have been killed by all three of these builds at least once and you know what I said to myself, "That was my fault, next time I will position myself better, plan accordingly and use cover where appropriate. I will learn from my mistake." Honestly, 'cheese' builds are easier to kill than balanced or standard builds.

Sincerely, a Jenner (and Stalker) pilot.

[Shadowsword8]

Banditman, on 28 March 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

Sure it can. So long as there is full armor penetration with one shot, there is the possibility of being killed by that shot due to ammo explosion. Six PPC's can completely remove armor from mediums and get to internals in one salvo, meaning that mech can be killed in one shot.

Even a Dragon can be armor breached in one salvo from six PPC's.

One solution for that aready exist, it's called CASE.

The PPC stalker already has one huge flaw: if it doesn't kill in two salvoes, it will shut down and become easy meat. If anything get under 90m, the stalker is dead.

The AC40 Jager has a huge one: it has to get close, and has little armor. Aim for the legs, and you're almost guaranted to get ammo explosion with 2 salvoes.

The dual gauss Jager/cat also have little armor due to weight constraints, and any proper heavy mech can take it head on.


I could go on, but the TL/DR version is that if you have issues with these builds, it's because you failed to recognize and exploit their inherent weaknesses. If weapons are fine, boating them can't make a mech OP. You can't make an unbalance appear out of nothing with just a multiplication, it's simple math.