16 replies to this topic

[SgtMagor]

I noticed since I started playing MWO that a non ECM can sneak up behind you and the radar is not detecting them, they already alpha strike me and I'm dead shortly after. the other thing that's bothering me, is I'm not seeing the 360 sensor working for me as soon as a mech passes my side to go behind me I lose contact on radar. does ECM override a 360 sensor?. if it does whats the point of the sensor...

Edited by SgtMagor, 27 March 2013 - 06:02 AM.

[Tragos]

The 360 sensor only keeps track of your target. Anything else is still lost.

[FrostCollar]

The 360 degree target retention module allows you to maintain a previously acquired lock no matter which way you are facing so long as your target is still in view. However, it doesn't actually allow you to see new targets behind you.

[Cairbre]

Working as intended, I'm afraid- 360 module allows you to keep lock on a target, if you're on them, but it won't alert you to enemies behind you, or enemies besides the one you have targeted. At least, that's according to the MWOwiki.

360 TARGET Unlock:15000XP
Cost:6,000,000

[hide]

Expanded Description Allows retention of target information when the enemy moves behind the piloted 'Mech.
NOTE: It does not detect untargeted enemies behind the piloted 'Mech.

[Mechteric]

Considering that target decay module can also serve the same function (assuming you don't keep the enemy behind you for more than a few seconds) the current 360 target retention module is pretty useless in most cases.

I would propose that 360 module be changed to actually detect mechs that are behind you but only if they aren't under an ECM blanket and only within about 100 meters tops. That would make it actually somewhat useful.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 27 March 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[SgtMagor]

that's my problem the 360 sensor, doesn't keep target lock once they go behind me! the sensor doesn't seem very useful at all...

Edited by SgtMagor, 27 March 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[General Taskeen]

MWO will eventually have Active/Passive radar, which is 360 degree Always On Radar. Active is for detecting units in a 360 Arc, through terrain, and Passive is for reducing your radar signature for sneaking around. Previous Mech games have it had it in some form, like MW3 and MW4. MW:LL, however, refined it and made it more balanced. You can read about it here. MWO has copied some ideas from MW:LL, so I would expect the MWO devs to use the refined MW:LL format for Active/Passive.

The 360 Module is just for keeping your lock, but also giving you the enemy Mech Info (their weapons and armor values) without LOS.

[BoPop]

way i understand it:

you have to first get a lock on a target.

then, if he runs behind you (while staying within a 200m radius) you maintain the lock. if he were to run behind an object, even if it were within your 200m radius) you'd have to rely on target decay to hold the lock. but once it steps out of your 200m radius, and stays behind-ish you, you'll loose your lock.

think of your 360TR as a sortof ECMish umbrella, might help ya better.

360 TR is one of the best modules for fast/jumpy mechs imo. also very slow lumbering mechs can stay on spiraling ravens, shooting streak srms, but mostly this helps your teammates know that somethin is going down over there by you and maintaining a lock gives intel, so important to the team.

[Ryokens leap]

Piece of advice. When you see low signal warning and ur mini map goes blank... have a look behind you.

[Strum Wealh]

General Taskeen, on 27 March 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

MWO will eventually have Active/Passive radar, which is 360 degree Always On Radar. Active is for detecting units in a 360 Arc, through terrain, and Passive is for reducing your radar signature for sneaking around.

Source?

Word from the Devs (via Dev Blog 02 and Community Q&A 03) indicates that the radar is intended to be limited to a relatively small arc & LOS-only detection, and to be fallible, and to be merely one of a number of several detection methods.

Quote

Targeting Tweaks

We’ve changed how targeting has worked by layering and controlling what players see and know about the opposing force elements.

Target information is now exclusively Line of Sight/Detection (LOSD). Simply put, if you, a teammate or support unit can’t directly see or detect a target using a module, that target is invisible. Target information decays rapidly. This means if you lose LOSD, you will lose all knowledge that target’s position and current status.

Details about a target are not inclusive, and is now layered based on the type of modules and BattleMech you are piloting. The concept helps emphasizes using specific `Mech and Module combinations to gain and share enhanced targeting information.
Sharing of target information is also no longer inclusive and requires a Module or C3 Master/Slave unit.

Detection

So how do you gather LOSD information? Well there are several ways.

• Direct – You can see the target directly (LOSD).
  
• Radar – Your radar can detect a target in a predetermined arc, also LOSD.
  
• Satellite Scan – Orbital scan of the battlefield, highly efficient however still limited to top-down LOSD.
  
• UAV – Similar to a Sat Scan, but localized to a specific area on the battlefield.
  
• Detectors – Dropped off on the battlefield.
  
• Units – Any non-BattleMech present on the battlefield.

Detection Modes

Each type of detection device may also have different primary or secondary modes of detection as follows:

• Night Vision – Allows players to see more detail in low light situations.
  
• Thermal Vision – Allows players to see heat signatures that can be detected through obstacles.
  
• Magnetometer Assisted – Allows players to detect metal and metal densities which can uncover a BattleMech hiding behind a building.

Some of these modes will not be available at launch, but I want to give you an overview of where we plan to take this concept.

Disruption/Spoofing

With such an emphasis on detection and tracking, we also needed a counter balance, something that players could equip. Using the module system, we allow players to equip Electronic Counter Measures (ECM) devices in the form of:

• Spoofers – Beacons that send out a false target signatures.
  
• Disruptors – Disrupt or block modes, communication, target acquisition and locks.
  
• Surveillance – Allows a player to intercept and decode enemy intel.

Quote

Will radar still have a passive mode, and if so, how does it work? –Octobit

[DAVID] Yes, radar will have an active and a passive mode. Our current plans are for the passive radar to have a reduced detection range and limit a lot of the electronic and information warfare equipment on your ’Mech as well as the electronic communication between you and your lance. The benefit is that you become a lot harder for enemies to detect, leading to greater chances to surprise or spy on them.

Granted, each of those postings is over a year old, so things might have changed with regard to the ideas and plans outlined.
Then again, things might not have changed with regard to said ideas and plans.
If you've any knowledge of newer Dev statements indicating otherwise to the above, please do share.

----------

Moreover, some have argued that 360-degree tracking of all units should be among the capabilities/characteristics of the Beagle Active Probe.

As a more comprehensive listing of what Beagle should be able to do...

• Detect any hidden 'Mech (or Combat Vehicle, or Battle Armor) - provided said unit was within 120 meters [4 hexes], would have had LOS while within range (that is, not behind a building or hill, or not more than 90 [3 hexes] meters of light woods or 60 meters [2 hexes] of heavy (or mixed) woods between the probe and its target), and was not underwater (Total Warfare, pgs. 100 and 129 and 303)
  
• Alert the user to the presence of ECM jamming (Total Warfare, pg. 134)
  
• Cost 200,000 c-bills (TechManual, pg. 291)
  
• Weigh 1.5 tons and consume 2 critical spaces (TechManual, pg. 342)
  
• Be rendered useless in a region characterized by natural "electromagnetic interference", distinct from ECM (Tactical Operations, pg. 55)
  
• Aid in target acquisition and aiming against an opponent in the probe's range [to the point of reducing the to-hit requirements] (Tactical Operations, pg. 99)
  
• Gather [additional] information about a target's status and condition (Tactical Operations, pg. 99 and 219)
  
• Potentially reveal the presence of minefields (Tactical Operations, pg. 99 and 210)
  
• Increase the likelihood of distinguishing a Ghost Target from an actual target, and vice versa (Tactical Operations, pg. 99 and 102)
  
• Expand overall detection range to 1080 meters [36 hexes] under optimal conditions (Tactical Operations, pg. 222)
  
• Provide a small bonus against Guardian ECM sensor jamming [Guardian gets only a +4 bonus against Beagle, in contrast to Guardian's +5 bonus vs standard 'Mech sensors - representing an ~83% chance of being jammed for Beagle, versus a ~92% chance of being jammed for unaugmented standard sensors] (Tactical Operations, pg. 223)
  
• Monitor a distant area (up to 2 kilometers [67 hexes] away) through up to 2 Remote Sensors (Tactical Operations, pgs. 224 and 375)
  
• Fails completely (by explicit rule) to detect opponents mounting a Null Signature System [permanently LosTech] (Tactical Operations, pg. 336)
  
• Must be within 30 meters [the adjacent hex] to detect a vehicle using a stealth chute (Tactical Operations, pg. 349)
  
• Fails completely (by explicit rule) to detect opponents mounting a Void Signature System [available in 3070] (Tactical Operations, pg. 349)
  
• Can be homed in on by Anti-Radiation Missiles [available to Clans in 3057, available to IS in 3066] (Tactical Operations, pg. 368)

For comparison, what Beagle in MWO actually does...

• Weighs 1.5 tons, consumes 2 critical spaces, and has 10 hitpoints
  
• Costs 400,000 c-bills
  
• 25% increased sensor range (to 1000 meters, from 800 meters)
  
• 25% decreased "target level acquisition time" (the time it takes to collect detailed target information ('Mech variant and loadout, current damage status and distribution, etc))
  
• Allows targeting of unpowered 'Mechs within 120m

BAP would certainly be more popular id it allowed for 360-degree tracking, yes?

[StalaggtIKE]

Strum Wealh, on 27 March 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Granted, each of those postings is over a year old, so things might have changed with regard to the ideas and plans outlined.
Then again, things might not have changed with regard to said ideas and plans.
If you've any knowledge of newer Dev statements indicating otherwise to the above, please do share.

Somewhat new.

Bryan Ekman, on 22 March 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Ask the Devs #34

StalaggtIKE: Is passive/active radar still planned, as stated in Developer Q&A3 - Information Warfare, and if so, how will it function?

A: Yes it’s still planned, no details yet.

[General Taskeen]

Strum Wealh, on 27 March 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Source?

I'm not sure the huge detailed post was necessary, that's a lot of info digging lol. I already know that BAP/ECM are dog p-oop, and 360 Module is gimmicky at best.

But, as Stal pointed out the Devs are planning to add Active/Passive radar at some point, which is probably going to replace the limited LOS radar in the game now. A "limited" approach would be like MW3/MW4, if they took example from those games. I gave a link for reading up on how MW:LL does it, which is a more refined/balanced concept. And since MWO has copied some aspects of MW:LL, I'm taking an educated guess.

[Strum Wealh]

However, AtD 34 doesn't actually tell us much that we didn't already know from Dev Blog 02 and Q&A 03 - only that they haven't completely scrapped the idea of active vs passive radar modes, and that they aren't willing to say how (if at all) their plans might have changed.

For all we know, the radar that is in-game now may well be the final form of active radar, or it could end up being similar to the MWLL model, or some middle-ground between the two.

However, given the initial plans and descriptions for MagScan scanning, UAV scouting, remote sensors ("detectors"), and satellite scans (with the latter three apparently planned to have access to visual, thermal, and magscan spectra), it seems as though passive radar could be at best extremely situational (that is, truly effective only on maps where most or all of the other scanning modes are rendered largely or totally ineffective)...

[Jakob Knight]

Note, as others have said, that the 360 module only allows you to maintain tracking on a unit you have locked onto. As ECM prevents lock-on outside a very close distance, it will effectively disable this module too, especially if the target breaks line-of-sight with terrain as well (according to the theory. Actual gameplay would have to confirm this, but it probably explains why you may be losing lock-ons with a 360 module with an enemy ECM unit in play).

Edited by Jakob Knight, 27 March 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[xDeityx]

SgtMagor, on 27 March 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

I noticed since I started playing MWO that a non ECM can sneak up behind you and the radar is not detecting them, they already alpha strike me and I'm dead shortly after. the other thing that's bothering me, is I'm not seeing the 360 sensor working for me as soon as a mech passes my side to go behind me I lose contact on radar. does ECM override a 360 sensor?. if it does whats the point of the sensor...

You should read the descriptions on the items you buy.

[General Taskeen]

Strum Wealh, on 27 March 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

However, given the initial plans and descriptions for MagScan scanning, UAV scouting, remote sensors ("detectors"), and satellite scans (with the latter three apparently planned to have access to visual, thermal, and magscan spectra), it seems as though passive radar could be at best extremely situational (that is, truly effective only on maps where most or all of the other scanning modes are rendered largely or totally ineffective)...

Perhaps.

Although, Passive + ECM in MW:LL makes you undetectable by any radar scanning. Granted you just can't lock on to anything, your missiles don't track, you receive no incoming missile warnings (although people can lock their missiles on you, if they see you visually) etc. Its for being Le' Sneaks.

[Strum Wealh]

General Taskeen, on 27 March 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Perhaps.

Although, Passive + ECM in MW:LL makes you undetectable by any radar scanning. Granted you just can't lock on to anything, your missiles don't track, you receive no incoming missile warnings (although people can lock their missiles on you, if they see you visually) etc. Its for being Le' Sneaks.

However, MWO is obviously not MWLL, and is thus not obliged to model all of its game mechanics on a 1:1 basis.

Which brings us back to, "what good would going passive actually do?"

Switching to passive radar mode won't make one run cooler, so it won't make any difference to thermal imaging (for aiming direct-fire weapons) or thermal tracking systems (if heat-seeking warheads are introduced as an alternate LRM/SRM ammo type).

If MagScan's behavior is modeled on that of real-world magnetic anomaly detectors, switching to passive radar mode won't help (since it won't change the material composition of the 'Mech, nor will it significantly alter the magnetic field of the planet(oid)).

With UAV and satellite views (each of which has access to visual, thermal, and magscan sensing), the additional bird's-eye-view further mitigates any possible advantage of a passive radar mode.

If the "detectors" are modeled on BT's remote sensors and remote sensor dispensors, a speedy unit would/should be able to quickly set up a perimeter that will alert them if anything approaches/crosses it.

Also, it stands to reason that Beagle would be able to detect such units - if it can pick out a shut-down 'Mech (effectively an inert chunk of metal and composites) at 120 meters, an active 'Mech should be quite detectable (likely at a greater distance, at that).

Additionally, Guardian (via its ability to actively jam enemy radar systems without interfering with friendly radar systems) already grants far-superior "le sneak capability" to those few 'Mechs that can mount it (which, frankly, I'm not expecting is going to change much, if at all).
Assuming the "disruptors" mentioned in Dev Blog 02 are essentially deployable mini-Guardians in the style of the remote sensors, one could even create stationary umbrellas of invisibility wherever one chooses.

In that sort of environment, when and why would being in passive radar mode be a preferable state?