56 replies to this topic

[One Medic Army]

I guess nobody mentioned that the Raven just got hit with a large series of nerfbats:
Movement code fixes (made lights in general easier to hit, this is a fairly old thing)
Hitbox tweaks (no more Ravens running around only able to be hit in the legs with regularity)
Missile tweaks (no more SSRMs dealing over 12dmg per missile to other light mechs on occasion)

Now all it has going for it is ECM, a relatively good speed for a light mech, and decent hardpoints (with a 6-tube missile launcher).

The big thing is prior to the missile tweaks (and hitbox tweaks) Raven 3Ls just beat the everloving crap out of every other light mech in the game using a combination of ECM, tracking super-missiles, and bad hitboxes.

Edited by One Medic Army, 27 March 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[kilgor]

The Jenner D has better hardpoints. It has an extra energy hard point and can mount jump jets. If it weren't for ECM, it would be preferred over the 3L.

[Felicitatem Parco]

-Ravens have many convex surfaces, which absorb less missile splash damage than flat or concave surfaces.
-Ravens have Side Torso hitboxes that facilitate damage-spread, whereas other Lights have more accessible CTs (this was recently addressed by the Devs, but not "totally cured" in the sense)
-Raven 3Ls have ECM and Streaks (if you so-choose)
-Ravens carry more armor and weapons than Commandos and Spiders while achieving up to ~98.5% of their top speeds

[deforce]

really? since hsr and the missile nerf, ravens are lol.... dead.

a few if not most competitive teams have gone back to jenners as the standard light. if a raven does well currently, i would say its because its low on the threat level and gets ignored while the heavier hitters are targeted first.

[Helkaer]

dario03, on 27 March 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Wait, did you strip a bunch of armor or something? How do you have 3ml, 2ssrm2 with 3 tons of ammo, 295xl, 3dhs, and ecm? Seems like you would be 2 tons over (if using FF and near max armor). Or are you not using the ecm (its not in your list but you say your 3 ecm mechs and include the 3L).

Looks like you are right. To achieve that build would require stripping off about 2.1 tons of armor. I run 3ml, 2ssr2 with 2 tons, 295xl, AMS with 1 ton, and ECM. No extra heat sinks in mine.

[Davers]

Pater Mors, on 27 March 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Communication, teamwork, focus fire, big guns, positioning, strategy, counter-ECM, PPCs.

Seriously, if I, an average player at best, can handle ECM without much problem then all you 'elite' players shouldn't be bitching.

The biggest problem with ECM is when matchmaker throws two teams with wildly unbalanced ECM equipped. 5 ECM vs none is a problem, yes. 1 or 2 on each side is perfect and usually makes for an awesome game.

Edit: I should mention that I Lone Wolf PUGs almost exclusively. Whenever there is a match with zero communication it's almost a guaranteed loss, regardless of ECM. If people are talking, ECM becomes much less of a problem.

I was talking about actual countering ECM in game. Like as in, 'ECM doesn't work now'. What you are describing is a different thing.

I don't complain about ECM. I have only 2 mechs that would be effected by it. I am more upset by the screen darkening that accompanies rapid missile hits than anything else about the Raven 3L.

[Delas Ting Usee]

What makes the 3L so good...?


The pilot.


Same as any other mech in any other weight class.

[verybad]

ECM...

In a non ECM fight, a Jenner is still better.

[Thorn Hallis]

I think the question should be "What made the 3L so good?". And the answer is: Bugged hitbox.

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 27 March 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[FallenSeraphim]

kilgor, on 27 March 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

The Jenner D has better hardpoints. It has an extra energy hard point and can mount jump jets. If it weren't for ECM, it would be preferred over the 3L.

I've stuck it out in my Jenner D, I find for the role it's supposed to do (harassment, light skirmishing, etc) it's superior to the 3L. With a good team (and mercy from the matchmaking gods...) 3L's are much easier to counter, even with ECM. Never touched or bought a 3L...

Though lately I've been fighting the urge to become "another" 3L pilot... feels like cheating to use something that's broken.. don't feel so bad using a 2D, heh

[mrDUDE]

I dont understand why the 3l can take up to a 295 engine but the 4x can only take up to 245.

Wouldn't it be easy to balance a bit by slowing the 3l down a bit?

[Pater Mors]

Davers, on 27 March 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

I was talking about actual countering ECM in game. Like as in, 'ECM doesn't work now'. What you are describing is a different thing.

I don't complain about ECM. I have only 2 mechs that would be effected by it. I am more upset by the screen darkening that accompanies rapid missile hits than anything else about the Raven 3L.

No, they are counters, they're just not hard counters except for Counter-ECM and PPC fire.

"A countermeasure is a measure or action taken to counter or offset another one. As a general concept it implies precision, and is any technological or tactical solution or system (often for a military application) designed to prevent an undesirable outcome in the process."

This would include communication on ECM movements/mech types, coordinated attacks against enemy ECM carriers, maximizing position to minimize enemy ECM disruption, using scouts to spot and isolate enemy ECM scouts, using your own ECM in counter mode etc etc.

Edited by Pater Mors, 27 March 2013 - 04:29 PM.

[mrDUDE]

FallenSeraphim, on 27 March 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Though lately I've been fighting the urge to become "another" 3L pilot... feels like cheating to use something that's broken.. don't feel so bad using a 2D, heh

I pull out my 3l win I'm on a bad losing streak or just playing poorly.
Sure it's cheap but it makes me feel better lol.

[hammerreborn]

Davers, on 27 March 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

I was talking about actual countering ECM in game. Like as in, 'ECM doesn't work now'. What you are describing is a different thing.

I don't complain about ECM. I have only 2 mechs that would be effected by it. I am more upset by the screen darkening that accompanies rapid missile hits than anything else about the Raven 3L.

That's not really a good way to frame "counters". To say "ECM doesn't work" would mean that other than range, ECM actually has the most counters in game, with ppc and ECM both negating it completely, TAG to a lesser extent, not to mention outright destruction. Every other weapon in the game has range and destruction as counters only, BAP ECM (within bubble) and destruction.

On topic, when streaks are fixed ( they are nearly only hitting ct right now) ravens will finally be a true choice rather than a nearly requirement for light mechs.

Then again, my Jenner has been ripping them apart lately, which is nice

Edited by hammerreborn, 27 March 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Bobdolemite]

dario03, on 27 March 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Wait, did you strip a bunch of armor or something? How do you have 3ml, 2ssrm2 with 3 tons of ammo, 295xl, 3dhs, and ecm? Seems like you would be 2 tons over (if using FF and near max armor). Or are you not using the ecm (its not in your list but you say your 3 ecm mechs and include the 3L).

Turns out my memory is just bad its 2 tons of ammo =/ though I could sacrifice a DHS and get 3 (might try that)

[JP Josh]

raven ecm mechs goin against lazer jehners.... i bet jehenrs given if they communicate and use team work.

[Gaan Cathal]

hammerreborn, on 27 March 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Then again, my Jenner has been ripping them apart lately, which is nice

Host State Rewind has given the Jenner their edge back in Light v Light to be honest, they're doing very well against StreakRavens since that came in. The shoddy pilots that jumped in the StreakRaven for easymode just haven't quite all caught on yet though, although most seem to be migrating to the dual-AC/20 Heavy setup. Oddly my six-pack -3L does better against Jenners than the Streak ones if I don't have a laggy day. It's more or less an even fight with a 6MLAS or 4MLAS/2SRM4 build I'm finding, depending on pilot skill of course. Jenner has jumpjets and a slight firepower advantage (either more zap and a couple more missiles, or more HSR pinpoint damage) and the Raven has an easier time calling in friendly support due to the ECM.

[Wolf Clearwater]

The jenner was the "broken" light mech before ECM, many of he other light pilots cried about it. Now its just the 3L and the 2D that are ridiculously broken because of the ECM+SSRM combo. The 3L is more popular because of the extra tonnage and same top speed. Commando's and Spiders (and soon the Flea) need to go faster than the Raven or Jenner to be really viable. ECM + SSRM needs a massive nerfing. No locks as long as ECM is in disrupt mode would fix that.

[Ngamok]

Davers, on 27 March 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

Thats why if Commandos and Spiders were the only mechs that had ECM, Commandos would be top dog in the light world.

If there was no ECM, Raven 3L would be playable, unlike it's other variants, but Jenners would be back on top as they were right up to the day ECM came out.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Raven - The base variant there is the 3L

And Ravens. Even in the Mech Commander game, I used the Raven to do the scouting to find the mechs and artillery and ground units.

[hammerreborn]

Gaan Cathal, on 27 March 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

Host State Rewind has given the Jenner their edge back in Light v Light to be honest, they're doing very well against StreakRavens since that came in. The shoddy pilots that jumped in the StreakRaven for easymode just haven't quite all caught on yet though, although most seem to be migrating to the dual-AC/20 Heavy setup. Oddly my six-pack -3L does better against Jenners than the Streak ones if I don't have a laggy day. It's more or less an even fight with a 6MLAS or 4MLAS/2SRM4 build I'm finding, depending on pilot skill of course. Jenner has jumpjets and a slight firepower advantage (either more zap and a couple more missiles, or more HSR pinpoint damage) and the Raven has an easier time calling in friendly support due to the ECM.

Not really. I only use 3 lasers, which is what the ravens are returning right back at me along with insta-CT hitting streaks. Just with their legs hitbox fixed its a lot easier to just go for the legs than to try and break through their screwed up torso hitbox setup.

Wolf87535, on 27 March 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

The jenner was the "broken" light mech before ECM, many of he other light pilots cried about it. Now its just the 3L and the 2D that are ridiculously broken because of the ECM+SSRM combo. The 3L is more popular because of the extra tonnage and same top speed. Commando's and Spiders (and soon the Flea) need to go faster than the Raven or Jenner to be really viable. ECM + SSRM needs a massive nerfing. No locks as long as ECM is in disrupt mode would fix that.

1) I agree that thhe limits need to be removed so commandos and spiders can actually do their jobs

2) No locks as long as in disrupt mode does not change ECM vs non-ECM dynamics. With simple macroing or manual keypresses the raven can retain streak immunity while using them slightly less effectively than they currently can.