37 replies to this topic

[Comassion]

Skyfaller, on 28 March 2013 - 03:55 AM, said:

JJets should generate heat only after their fuel has been exhausted.

Oooh, I like this. Let JumpJets last as long as you want, but once you're out of fuel you're generating lots of heat instead.

[Dexee]

TT rules for JJs and heat is this: +1 heat/hex min 3/turn. It's a little interesting trying to convert something like that into a useful heat rule for an active game. I would rather get directionals before we fix anything else though.

[OneEyed Jack]

HammerForge, on 28 March 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

Actually, no, Jumping had a min of 3 heat, but you got 1 per hex moved...so if you moved 2 hex, you gained 3 heat, but if you moved 6 hex, you gained 6 heat. Running you got a flat 2 per hex moved. So using JJ in TT was not all that harsh on the heat scale, was basically the same as walking once you moved 3 or more hexes.

http://www.pryderock...mrr_tw_grey.pdf
Or
http://www.battletec...ry_Rulebook.pdf
Page 39 of that last one

If you had a JJ capable mech, jumping from place to place was better than walking(usually the same number of movement points) since it generated the same heat and you could freely change what direction you were facing.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Walking is 1 heat regardless of hexes moved and running is 2 heat, regardless. Only jumping counts the hexes for heat.

And no effing directional JJs, this ain't some damn gundam crap.

[Franchi]

OneEyed Jack, on 28 March 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

You have no idea what you're talking about. Walking is 1 heat regardless of hexes moved and running is 2 heat, regardless. Only jumping counts the hexes for heat.

And no effing directional JJs, this ain't some damn gundam crap.

Cause TT (the bible of the franchise) didn't allow facing changes and directional changes while JJ'ing right?

Edited by Franchi, 28 March 2013 - 06:08 AM.

[Pale Jackal]

In my experience, jump jets do reduce your cooling rate, so they do produce heat, it just won't make you overheat.

[Mercules]

Franchi, on 28 March 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Cause TT (the bible of the franchise) didn't allow facing changes and directional changes while JJ'ing right?

Nor did MW3 where you actually had to use vectored JJs to turn in mid air and not your normal turn keys. The JJs in MW3 were the most representative of the lore.

[Sheraf]

Fergrim, on 27 March 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

Seems as if jump jetting at the moment makes almost no heat. But given the amount of heat necessary to lift 65 tons 40 or 50 feet off the ground... I'm beginning to think it could serve balance a bit better if jump jets were making a good deal more heat.

A full jump + two er PPCs should roast the mech making the jump, At this point, jump jets don't cost any heat at all.

Maybe we could find a middle ground?

Jump jet is overpower? Cover anyone

My bad, the way of using cover is lost after LRM nerf

[Fergrim]

Adding smiley faces doesn't make your broken English any more understandable

I didn't say "Help, I can't beat poptarts" I said, "Jump jets appear to make far less heat than the tabletop, seemingly negligible, can anyone verify?"

But hey, let's just respond to the post we wanted to read rather than the actual one from now on, it would help the kiddies keep up in conversation at least :]

Quote

Actually, no, Jumping had a min of 3 heat, but you got 1 per hex moved...so if you moved 2 hex, you gained 3 heat, but if you moved 6 hex, you gained 6 heat. Running you got a flat 2 per hex moved. So using JJ in TT was not all that harsh on the heat scale, was basically the same as walking once you moved 3 or more hexes.

http://www.pryderock...mrr_tw_grey.pdf
Or
http://www.battletec...ry_Rulebook.pdf
Page 39 of that last one

If you had a JJ capable mech, jumping from place to place was better than walking(usually the same number of movement points) since it generated the same heat and you could freely change what direction you were facing.

And please don't google the rules and then misquote them to me. Only in this game would someone falsely give the impression they played a table top. :/ Well either that or you've been playing incorrectly all these years.

As you can see, in the TT jumping max distance ALWAYS included a heavy heat penalty on your mech. In the case of TT, reducing your movement speed at a minimum. Firing two PPCs and jumping max distance would involve damn near shutting down and a host of heat penalties.

(use this mech sheet for reference, the heat scale is on the left http://freespace.vir...EditExample.gif . As you can see, 6 heat puts one firmly into the realm of penalty and firing from that point would easily have someone roasted. Especially given you can jump AND shoot simultaneously in the game, you'd think they'd consider having jump jets make significant heat.

So again, my question simply, does heat from jump jets factor in at all in this game or is it negligible?

The answer, apparently, is that it's negligible.

Edited by Fergrim, 28 March 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[Khobai]

Im all for JJ generating appreciable heat.

However we need JJ that are actually worth using to justify that heat. And that means JJ need higher fuel capacity and directional thrusting.

[Mercules]

Fergrim, on 28 March 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

As you can see, in the TT jumping max distance ALWAYS included a heavy heat penalty on your mech. In the case of TT, reducing your movement speed at a minimum. Firing two PPCs and jumping max distance would involve damn near shutting down and a host of heat penalties.

No it wouldn't. Most mechs that wanted to be able to fire two PPCs and jump would have had enough heat sinks to sink most of that. Typically jumping meant you were not firing something, but it didn't mean you were not firing anything. You can gain 4 heat without having a penalty and many mechs would be heat neutral for firing something like 2 PPCs and walking if not running. At that point you could jump 5-6 hexes and not gain enough heat for a penalty.

Look at the Panther, a PPC wielding and jumping mech. It had 13 SHS and so could fire it's PPC and jump 6 hexes and have no heat penalties. It was 3 heat up, but that could be bled off with a couple turns walking or running and still firing the PPC.

[Khobai]

Quote

Typically jumping meant you were not firing something

No it didnt. In fact some of the most dangerous mechs in battletech combined jumpjets with pulse lasers. Because the -2 bonus from pulse lasers offset the +3 penalty from jumping.

[Mercules]

Khobai, on 28 March 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

No it didnt. In fact some of the most dangerous mechs in battletech combined jumpjets with pulse lasers. Because the -2 bonus from pulse lasers offset the +3 penalty from jumping.

Need to finish out my quote there...

Mercules, on 28 March 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Typically jumping meant you were not firing something, but it didn't mean you were not firing anything.

Meaning you didn't fire one of your lasers or some weapon to make up for the heat, but you still fired a bunch of weapons.

[Mazrix]

I'm down for JJs producing more heat. Maybe even a lot more...

But only if you make them like this

Edited by Mazrix, 28 March 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

xenoglyph, on 28 March 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

Sure, make JJs generate lots of heat....because the game needs to suck more.

Make proper directional jumpjets, then we can talk about heat.

Your not driving a Harrier Jumpjet dude. JJ's are meant to allow a Mech to reach an elevated position, or avoid rough terrain. Not fly around like some F'ing Gundham.

MWO's JJ work better than most older versions. Do they really generate the Heat they should, given the benefit they provide?

Class V JJ's Stats:

<JumpJetStats cooldown="1.0" duration="3.75" boost_instant="215" boost_fwd="0.1" boost_z="25" heat="0.1"

[Praehotec8]

I took my C-1 out into the testing grounds briefly (winter forest colony) and tried out its JJs. It seems that standing still and engaging them raised heat from 0 to 7%, and this increased to 10% if used while at top speed. It seems that if your heat level is already over that threshold (from weapon firing, etc.) that the level does not increase further. However, firing your JJs while your heat is other their threshold DOES slow down the dissipation of heat significantly.

On caustic, my C-1 idles at 6% heat, and JJs increase the heat to 14% and 18% (standing and running). Firing 2 LRM15s increased heat from 6 to 29%, and with 10 DHS took about 6 seconds to return to idle level (6%). Firing JJs during the cooldown period increased the time to return to idle from 6 seconds to about 9 seconds.

These are all rough observations but I think they do illustrate the JJs DO add heat. Given what they do, and that they take weight and crits, I think they're in a pretty good spot and a heat increase would not be warranted unless they receive significant improvements over what they do now.

[DegeneratePervert]

No. Adding more heat would make all the Spider variants pointless.

[Tehtos]

Jump jets do create heat. maybe not as much heat as you would like, but more than appropriate compared to walking and running.

What jump jets need is more thrust, more screen shake, and less duration. Currently, if a mountain is walk able, it is faster to walk than jump. At least for that's the way it is for Catapaults trying to position themselves--haven't tried JJ's on lights.

[Mercules]

MaddMaxx, on 28 March 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Do they really generate the Heat they should, given the benefit they provide?

Yeah, they actually do. Let's not forget that in this game every JJ another mech lacks is likely a ton of ammo for a lower heat ballistic weapon or Heat Sink they could have. In return we get to turn into easy to hit targets. JJs are mostly good for shortcuts, spin turns, and "poptarting".