163 replies to this topic

[CancR]

Almost at 50. Send this to your friends and get this up to 100 likes.

[Xune]

CancR, on 28 March 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

It's really simple. We are sick of ECm being a Frankenstein of all the ecm suites, which, surprise, surprise, is broken.

If you want to have ecm be all the ecms, then also make it the 4.5 tons, requiring a command console, and taking up 4x the slots.

Guardian ECM should only
-Increase lock on time for missiles
-Decrease range where you can detect mechs
-In air missiles lose lock at random intervals (Which can be negated by target decay)
TAKE OUT
-Null Sig
-no missile locks

ECM was a OP solution to an OP problem, and now its time to start rolling back mistakes and actually start balancing the game in a sustainable way.

fully agree

[CancR]

Thanks every one, we are at 51! just over half way to the goal!

[zztophat]

I think this ECM variant idea is the best I have yet seen.

I would really like it if the null sig was it's own thing as well, so non-electronics warfare mechs can also be sneaky.

EDIT: and this thread cannot possibly have enough likes, tell your friends.

Edited by zztophat, 13 April 2013 - 07:24 PM.

[General Taskeen]

CancR, on 11 April 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Almost at 50. Send this to your friends and get this up to 100 likes.

I'll see to it personally Commander CancR. There will be no one to stop us this time!

[FlyingTurtle]

Taron, on 29 March 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

From my point of view, ECM works perfect as it is now.

There is absolutly no need to change anything on the ECM.

On my last 100 matches, i often did not even notice that enemy has ECM.

Ahem* ECM is not what most would call fine. A light with ECM runs up to you, you're HUD says low signal, you cant see your allies on the minimap. The light fires its streaks, in the radius of ECM... No one can here you scream.

[Prezimonto]

ECM is completely OP for 1.5 tons and no other penalties.

Compare it to AMS: 1.5 tons and shoots down ~5 missle in each LRM barrage or ~1-2 SRM/SSRM. It serves as a partial dps counter to one class of weapons.

ECM negates completely LRM and SSRM usage outside of a narrow band, and within that band it lengthens lock on times. It also hides whole teams in this way. For 1.5 tons and no heat penalty.

I can't agree more with this thread. ECM's benefits are completely out of proportion with it's size and penalties (essentially only that it's limited to certain mechs). This single limitation serves NOT as a limitation but as, what I hope is an unintentional, nerf to non-ECM variants because this one small piece of equipment is able to essentially negate the use of an entire class of weapon against your team.

Sure tag and PPC's counter the effect, but that doesn't change the fact that one small piece of equipment is totally game changing. Compare that tonnage and slot space to a 7 ton PPC. That ppc can do damage and mess with ECM, but it doesn't essentially nullify viability of nearly 1/3 of the weapons in the game.

If ECM applied ONLY to the mech in question is would be too good for the tonnage space given that it has no down side, but it applied the effect to whole teams.

ECM needs to have a trade-off if it's going to stay anywhere near this powerful. It should cost heat(Proportional to the number of covered mechs so if you hide your whole team you should but running extremely hot) to run it at the least, it should have an "off" mode so the mech can not run it when conditions are unfavorable. "counter" mode should come with more penalties as well. You should be targetable without line of sight because even the slow, miserable, terrible software these mechs have should be able to find and pinpoint a mech screaming with an electronic signature. To compensate "counter" mode should negate all ECM fields not just one.

In essence, I don't mind ECM having large capabilities but they should come with large penalties and force a pilot into making situational choices for what mode to run OR to just turn it off. Right now it's too good... you run with it on, until you find another ECM and are near your team or have another buddy with ECM (which just encourages the use of ECM variants over non).

Edited by Prezimonto, 16 April 2013 - 06:06 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Bump!

[Eternal Hunter]

Meh, new patch, and still nothing on ECM in patchnotes.

[CancR]

Sadly, PGI isn't interested in anything that doesn't make Mechwarrior more like Call of Duty,

[Strum Wealh]

Well, the canon abilities of the Guardian ECM Suite include...

• Generates an effect bubble with a radius of 180 meters (see page 134 of Total Warfare), doubled when in a region characterized by electromagnetic interference (see page 55 of Tactical Operations)
  
• Nullifies the effects of Artemis IV FCSs (TacOps is somewhat unclear as to whether Artemis V is affected to a lesser degree by Guardian (as Artemis V's descriptive text implies some level of effect), or not affected at all by Guardian (in contrast to being affected by Angel ECM, a contrast implied by Angel's gameplay rules)); see pg. 134 of Total Warfare and pg. 283 of Tactical Operations
  
• Nullifies the effects of Beagle Active Probes, but NOT those of Bloodhound Active Probes; see pg 134 of Total Warfare and pg. 278 of Tactical Operations
  
• Nullifies the effects of Narc and iNarc beacon pods; see pg. 134 of Total Warfare
  
• Nullifies the effects of C3 and C3i systems (but NOT C3 Boosted systems); see pg. 134 of Total Warfare and pgs. 297-298 of Tactical Operations
  
• Affects detectability and identification via sensors other than IR, MagScan, and Seismic (see the "ECM/Stealth Modifiers Table" and pages 224-225 of Tactical Operations)
  
• Generates an ECCM bubble capable of negating the ECM effects of a single a single other Guardian ECM Suite or similar system (or one half of an Angel ECM Suite if both components are set to ECM mode); see pgs. 100-101 of Tactical Operations
  
• Generates ghost targets; see pgs. 101-102 of Tactical Operations
  
• Allows for the functioning of Stealth Armor System and Void Signature System (neither of which will operate at all unless either Guardian or Angel is installed); see pg. 142 of Total Warfare and pgs. 348-349 of Tactical Operations
  
• Affects the effectiveness of enemy automated weapon emplacements (Tactical Operations, pg. 133)
  
• Affects enemy communications systems (including Command Consoles, Mobile HQs, and Satellite Uplinks) and related bonuses (Tactical Operations, pgs. 195/196)

Many of these capabilities are shared with the unnamed Clan-built counterpart to Guardian, as well as the Angel ECM Suite and the ECM components of the Capellan-built Electronic Warfare Equipment and the Clan-built Watchdog CEWS.

Guardian ECM does not canonically affect the tracking/accuracy bonus (which is separate from the initial targeting) of Streak SRMs.
Guardian ECM does not canonically affect the targeting capabilities/bonuses of Targeting Computers.
Guardian ECM does not canonically affect TAG at all.
Guardian ECM does not affect units that are friendly/allied to the unit carrying the Guardian.

With regard to Guardian ECM and targets outside of the 180-meter radius, there are two opposing rules:

• The basic core rules presented in Total Warfare state (on page 134), "The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble."
  
• The double-blind rules presented in Tactical Operations state (on page 224), "To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM/stealth system (note that stealth systems only affect the target unit and do not have a radius of effect, and so are only taken into consideration for the unit mounting that equipment). LOS does not affect this radius. If a spotting unit is within the range of multiple ECM systems, combine the effects of all the ECM systems."

Additionally, there are examples of Guardian being used in the BT novels - specifically, in the novels Main Event by James D. Long and Initiation to War, by Robert N. Charrette.

Quote

"Command One, this is Pursuit Two. Two inbound blips on an intersect course. Either they've got damn fast 'Mechs or a pair of hovercraft."
"Confirmed, Pursuit Two. Switch to Guardian." Rose watched the long-range scanner become suddenly cloudy as Ajax activated the Guardian electronic countermeasure suite. The ECM system was designed to provide a cloud of electromagnetic disturbance that would make targeting the mercenaries virtually impossible until the Clans got to close range. It was the perfect counter to the Clans' longer ranges. As long as the enemy didn't have a line of sight, they would have a difficult time tracking the Thorns inside the cloud. Of course, the cloud itself was very easy to spot.
Under the umbrella of the Guardian the Black Thorns picked up the pace. Rose switched to the short-range scanner because the long-range version was effectively blind while the Guardian was engaged.

-----

"Keep up the good work, Pursuit One. Now confirm the kill and let's get out of here. Pursuit Two, Guardian off."
Rose switched back to long-range scan as the mercenaries went deeper into the city. Gradually, offices replaced factories and the lighting improved. Rose knew that the Clans were fully aware of his approach. Panicked civilians were reacting to media reports of the first encounter, sending most away from the battle zone, but others toward it. Traffic became increasingly congested, forcing the mercenaries to divert from their original path three separate times.

Quote

Making sure that Trahn's Raven had him under its electronic screen, Kelly found himself a long fire lane through the streets of Hinchuan. He picked a spot that put his missiles at maximum effective range. He'd be in range for the Pillager's intimidating gauss weapons, but the Raven's Guardian suite ought to shift the odds in his favor. It wouldn't matter much, he told himself, he wasn't intending a duel. All he wanted to do was get out there long enough to send ten LRMs downrange. He just needed to distract Crawford.

-----

The far shore would be little better than a practice firing range for the Pillager. Worse, any Vigilante 'Mech on the far bank would likely be outside the Raven's protective screen. If the Raven were over there, the reciprocal would apply to anyone remaining on the Hinchuan bank.
"If Trahn can cross somewhere down the canal, I could jump over anywhere," JJ suggested. "Her Guardian suite will give us the best cover we can get over there and we'll be in flanking position."
"The canal itself is better cover," Sam said.
"It isn't very deep," Kelly pointed out. It was three to four meters mostly, deep enough for the barges that traversed it, but barely more than waist deep to the light 'Mechs. "It's not enough for a submerged approach."
"We don't need it to be," Sam stated. "The banks give us another couple of meters. The Commandos can crouch, and moving along the near embankment, we won't be seen. Better still we might be able to stay within reach of Trahn's Guardian suite.

(The relevant excerpts are viewable here and here.)

What MWO's implementation of Guardian ECM does:

• When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM, enemy Mechs will have to come within 1/4 the normal distance (200 m instead of 800 m, by default) for hidden Mechs to show up on their battlegrid and HUD.
  
• When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM, the Beagle Active Probe is of no use in extending this range.
  
• When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM, it takes twice as long to achieve a missile lock against a hidden Mech.
  
• When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM, Narc beacons will stick to hidden Mechs, but they won’t provide their normal bonuses until the Mech leaves the ECM’s range.
  
• When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM, Artemis IV does not provide any bonuses against hidden Mechs.
  
• When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM, you cannot share any targeting data with the rest of your team, and vice versa.
  
• When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM, your Beagle Active Probe ceases to function.
  
• When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM, you cannot achieve any missile locks.
  
• When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM, your TAG laser can still fire but provides no bonuses.
  
• When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM, your battlegrid and targeting information will flicker.
  
• ECM should not cut out friendly signatures on the battlefield. Friendly Mechs should always be identifiable and not obscure team play.

Other than affecting TAG, the MWO implementation of Guardian seems to generally be within the bounds of BT canon.

[General Taskeen]

Strum Wealh, on 16 April 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

Other than affecting TAG, the MWO implementation of Guardian seems to generally be within the bounds of BT canon.

Except it doesn't prevent a lock in any case, which has coincidentally been the balancing measure in every Mech game but MWO. It reduces radar detection, but not LOS targeting. This is the part that confuses people and I suspect go, "Huh, how is it possible to lock a target, but the radar can't see it?"

They are two separate functions, and are easily programmable, balanced, and proven concepts in other Mech titles.

The best case scenario example is MW:LL. MWO's ECM concept is what is called over-modeling. MWO's SSRM's are another example of over-modeling. An over-modeled system bringing "hard-counters" to the game (a F2P one at that), when these systems should be passive bonuses and/or skill-based at best.

If they wanted to model something "cool" for ECM, they could have simply done Ghost Targeting, something original for a Mech game, and not the nonsense Big Fish Balancing we have in the game.

Edited by General Taskeen, 16 April 2013 - 06:51 PM.

[DocBach]

The Black Thorns description made it seem that to be hidden with ECM they had to keep out of line of sight, as well as it had negative effects against Jeremiah Rose's own sensors as he had to turn off his long range sensors.

[DragonTactician]

Well i have a few ecm mechs such as an atlas raven and now a commando, i can understand the range people are saying, it makes valid sense, that it should be more 25% rather then the heavy 75%, but i dont agree with the weight or multiple components, ecm is a valid tactic, id say its more a problem of the grouping your getting from matches, as unless you can carefully plan a full 8 man group to be a well rounded combination, rather then random players+mechs each game. Its hard to counter the ecm mechs, the only thing i would probally change is that if a mech is tagged with line of sight that is using ecm missles should be able to fired at them within range and outside range with ecm.

[Theodor Kling]

The NSS should remain ingame nevertheless, as an additional pice of equipment ( and probably reserved for a few specialised mechs, like well.. only the raven so far I think).

[Wicksman]

It's amazing how few ECM's you see in an average drop considering how overpowered people seem to think it is.

The way its being described here there should be around 14 mechs with ECM in every drop.... But there isnt? Why isnt there?

In fact I've been strolling around in a streakcat for my last few drops and havn't had any real issues avoiding ECM........ People have adapted, move on.

[TrentMK]

Can I get a refund on my founders mech now that it can't actually participate in most of its battles?

[Strum Wealh]

General Taskeen, on 16 April 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

Except it doesn't prevent a lock in any case, which has coincidentally been the balancing measure in every Mech game but MWO. It reduces radar detection, but not LOS targeting. This is the part that confuses people and I suspect go, "Huh, how is it possible to lock a target, but the radar can't see it?"

They are two separate functions, and are easily programmable, balanced, and proven concepts in other Mech titles.

The best case scenario example is MW:LL. MWO's ECM concept is what is called over-modeling. MWO's SSRM's are another example of over-modeling. An over-modeled system bringing "hard-counters" to the game (a F2P one at that), when these systems should be passive bonuses and/or skill-based at best.

If they wanted to model something "cool" for ECM, they could have simply done Ghost Targeting, something original for a Mech game, and not the nonsense Big Fish Balancing we have in the game.

MWO's implementation of Guardian doesn't prevent LOS visual targeting, either - it does nothing to stop one from tracking a target with their own eyes, placing the reticle over a visually-acquired target, and firing a direct-fire or dumbfire-capable weapon (either or both of which, at this point, describes all but one weapon system in the game) at said target.

What it does do, though, is significantly reduce the degree to which the 'Mech is able to acquire and track targets for the player, as opposed to said player having to perform those tasks themselves - and the 'Mech's ability to do that is logically tied to the capabilities of the 'Mech's sensors.
The player being able to see and track a target (LOS/visual targeting) and the 'Mech being able to "see" and track a target (sensor/radar targeting) are two separate (albeit related and intertwined) things - and Guardian's job is to interfere with the latter.

And on MWLL's implementation of Guardian:

Quote

The Guardian Electronic CounterMeasure Suite, or GECM, is an advanced electronic warfare suite that can be used to reduce the range at which enemy units can detect you on Radar, and can be mounted on both Mechs and Vehicles. In MWLL, this effect is represented by a unit's radar signature being reduced by 500 meters. This does not stack on top of a unit's reduced signature when in Passive Radar mode.

Regardless of GECM, the moment an asset overheats, they are equally visible to having no radar protection and running in Active Radar.

As of release 0.3.0, the GECM also increases the time it takes for an enemy to achieve target lock. This bonus does stack on top of the similar bonus given by running in Passive Radar mode.

It looks less like MWO's Guardian being "over-modeled" and more like MWLL's Guardian being generally "under-modeled"...

-----

DocBach, on 16 April 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

The Black Thorns description made it seem that to be hidden with ECM they had to keep out of line of sight, as well as it had negative effects against Jeremiah Rose's own sensors as he had to turn off his long range sensors.

The Black Thorns description made it seem like staying out of LOS on the way to their target was in addition to & distinct from the (anti-)sensor coverage provided by the Guardian mounted in Ajax's Raven.
A company of 'Mechs on the march across open terrain is still going to be highly visible to the good 'ole "Mark I Eyeball" (and enhanced visual modes, like night vision and thermal/IR vision), Guardian or no (since we're talking about an era without CLPS and VoidSig) - the Thorns wouldn't want to be picked off at range by Clan snipers relying on visual target acquisition, yes?

[Wicksman]

TrentMK, on 17 April 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

Can I get a refund on my founders mech now that it can't actually participate in most of its battles?

I'd log it as a bug if you can no longer aim your founders mech, its a serious issue that needs to be addressed.
Have you tried putting some oil in the mech joints?

[Von Falkenstein]

Fix ECM. *bump*