89 replies to this topic

[Voidcrafter]

theDeimos, on 29 March 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

I disagree on the OT. High alpha mechs always have issues with something else (heat, speed, armor). I never had problems with ac40 jms. I even ran one too but didnt like it.

Even some stock mechs carry AC40 so why shouldnt it be in game? Save your QQs for when crazy things like the Hunchback IIc hit the battlefield
Screw AC40, UAC40 is the real sh*t

"Heat issues", you serious?
Cause pointing that people here are "QQ"-ing prevents me from taking you seriously.
I don't know a single AC20s mech that would actually overheat before kicking your sorry back to oblivion, so please, post some better argument.
Have you been playing lately?
80+kph AC20 jagers walking in packs, oneshoting anything that gets under 300ms and stuff, still with full armor(on the torso parts anyways)?
"Ooh but stay away you noob..."
Yea - you're reading? 80kph. Maps with covers, design and stuff.
I'm getting annoyed now and then when someone starts trying to convince me that if you wanna go brawl the only way to do so is with an(or better -pair of) AC20.
It shouldn't be that way, don't you think?

[Roaddog]

Jack Corban, on 29 March 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

Let me tell you that its not. I speak first hand. My Jager-S has 2 AC/20, 4 Med Laser and 7 Tons of Ammo for the AC/20 thats 49 Shots. I have 304 Points of Armor and double heatsinks. And even though it uses an XL 260 its a beast up close. Most if not all matches i play i kill 2-4 Mechs alone. And i wouldn't call me the best player ever. More then mediocre yes but not top league material.

What people don't realize is that a JM is a very squishy mech. You get lit up like a Christmas tree in that particular mech. So even if you do manage to slip by at 64.8 kph then you still need to get close without being focused. 7/10 games in my JM have ended in focus fire where I used maybe 10 rounds before I am the center of attention, torso twist be damned in that mech. So if teams will start listening then you have a better chance of taking one down before they do damage, but with most of my pugs, I usually state in team chat EXACTLY what the enemy is doing and no one pays attention...... So if you die in a JM AC40 then you probably focus fired early, if you live the noobs deserve it for not communicating. In this regard its time to stop the whining threads, this IS a team based game.

Edited by Roaddog, 29 March 2013 - 06:26 AM.

[Zolaz]

IF you dont want 4-5 sec flash battles have PGI penalize assault and heavy players. With the present match maker you can have a large tonnage difference between teams. If one team has 300 tons on the other, guess who is at the advantage?

There should be some type of positive reinforcement for people who use smaller mechs. Give them a bonus to C-Bills earned. There should be some sort of reward for being a man or two down or having a disparity in weight. Positive reinforcement for better tactics is a good thing.

[Voidcrafter]

Roaddog, on 29 March 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

What people don't realize is that a JM is a very squishy mech. You get lit up like a Christmas tree in that particular mech. So even if you do manage to slip by at 64.8 kph then you still need to get close without being focused. 7/10 games in my JM have ended in focus fire where I used maybe 10 rounds before I am the center of attention, torso twist be damned in that mech. So if teams will start listening then you have a better chance of taking one down before they do damage, but with most of my pugs, I usually state in team chat EXACTLY what the enemy is doing and no one pays attention...... So if you die in a JM AC40 then you probably focus fired early, if you live the noobs deserve it for not communicating. In this regard its time to stop the whining threads, this IS a team based game.

..."team based game" - without a good way of communicating with the others implemented in it.
Oh yea - I so love to stop in the middle of the massacre, just to type down target-name of the AC20s jager, who was waiting 4 mins for the battle to start, so he could just jump in and chop stuff.

64kph? Squishy?
You sure we're playing the same game mate?
Yea - the elephant years and the head locations make it a bit easier to hit, but it's still something that goes with almost full armor, with about 80kph(that's the common jager I see on the field in my bracket - about 74 without the speed tweak).
As for the "noobs", which as a word and the current term of use I find insulting, did you started playing any of the mechwarrior games(or the first game you actually tried), being the best at it? Or let we say "very good"?
Or do you think being good at some game gives you the right to behave like a complete ***** and arrogant with the others, that are trying to learn the game?
Speaking of which, how do you think going 2xAC20s contribute toward the new player's learning curve?
Both ways - playing with it and playing against it(for dramatism - with a trial mech)?
I agree that's something that should be focus fired on sight, as is the splat/streak cat, or the LL-boats, but for the rest...
I advice you to mind your temper, cause from all the people who posted that way, there could be few that are not exactly what you claim them to be you know?
And they too have their reasons to think that this boating/fast paced madness have nothing to do with what the game or the game's universe attempts to achieve.

Edited by Voidcrafter, 29 March 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

BladeSplint, on 28 March 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

If you're getting cored in a few seconds you need to take a hard look at your tactics. Stay with your team and learn to distribute damage by torso twisting.

While you have a point, when you have been called primary, or round a corner into three enemy Atlai, torso twisting is not going to save you.

[theDeimos]

Voidcrafter, on 29 March 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

"Heat issues", you serious?
Cause pointing that people here are "QQ"-ing prevents me from taking you seriously.
I don't know a single AC20s mech that would actually overheat before kicking your sorry back to oblivion, so please, post some better argument.
Have you been playing lately?
80+kph AC20 jagers walking in packs, oneshoting anything that gets under 300ms and stuff, still with full armor(on the torso parts anyways)?
"Ooh but stay away you noob..."
Yea - you're reading? 80kph. Maps with covers, design and stuff.
I'm getting annoyed now and then when someone starts trying to convince me that if you wanna go brawl the only way to do so is with an(or better -pair of) AC20.
It shouldn't be that way, don't you think?

I didnt mean every alpha mech has every disadvantage. 80kph ac40 jms have severe armor problems and a XL engine which makes them super squishy. Its also pretty difficult to hit with an ac20 if both you and your target are moving. I'll say it again: I never had problems fighting ac40 brawlers.

Also: Coordinated packs of mechs are always op.

[hammerreborn]

Lukoi, on 28 March 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

You think they are more the norm? Personally I think they've become a bit less common. Neither of us can truly know at this point (it's all anecdotal), but given the Jager's natural strengths, of course you're going to see AC40's and minisplats on the new "shiny." Outside of that though, I've seen more variety as of late, not less.

It's an effect of ELO based matchmaking that doesn't really take class into effect. When you roll in a light now, you're pretty much giving the other team an AC/40, poptart, D-DC, or ppc stalker, which pretty much means your screwed, which means you then load up in your cheese mech, which makes more people load up in cheese mechs, which means everyone is in heavies and assaults and no one plays lights and mediums other than dedicated people that their team then despises because the tonnage swing just went vastly in the other teams favor.

[Terror Teddy]

Roadbeer, on 29 March 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

Don't forget all the jamming... weapon is pre-nerfed by design.

It jams because it has the POTENTIAL to shoot faster with the RISK of jamming - that's the main and only difference with the AC/5 vs UAC/5

Voidcrafter, on 29 March 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

DONT DARE TOUCH MY UAC5s YOU HEAR ME?!?!?
DON'T YA JUST DARE!!!
UAC5s aint boating - it's quite heavy weapon, which requires probably the most ammount of ammo in the whole game(to be able to run 2 of those you need about 200 shots(so-so optimised) - which is 8 tons(of ammo), so to run 3 --> ~250+ - 10-12 tons, 4... do you really wanna know?

I would actually give it the same amount of ammo per tonne - it's essentially the same weapon witha different fire mechanic.

It's +1 tonne and +1 critical for being able to shoot TWICE as fast with the risk of jamming.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 29 March 2013 - 07:41 AM.

[MisterPlanetarian]

"1 shotting" is awlways going to be the endgame of the FPS genre. Any roll/chance based hit or damage system does not belong in an FPS period. MWO is an FPS, it's different in that it has strategy game elements like loadouts included.

AC40 Jaegers with 60 damage Alpha strikes are dangerous because if the pilot knows when to shoot or not he will pretty much rip you limb from limb, that said it's hardly game breaking. Button mashing your weapons is not the way to properly play in MWO, alpha strikes or not. Good pilots time torso twisting to the enemys rate of fire. A good enemy in turn holds fire untill the target twists back to take a shot. This is key when fighting assaultmechs as they will always be able to take out anything smaller than themselves in a frontal cone fight if they can spread out the damage they take even a little. "Missing" a single AC20 Volley against an Assaultmech is pretty much a garantueed loss unless said mech is damaged allready.


Alpha also comes in many forms.

I do pretty well in Laserboats. My favourite is the STK-3F with 4x Large Lasers and 2x Medium Lasers. 22 DBL Heatsinks and a Standard 300 Engine lets me control key things like heat and positioning very well. Mastered skills give me a speed of 62kph and a rediculously fast 105 degree torso twist. An ammo free 46 Alpha strike is quite nice once you learn to pick your shots. What separates a good laserboat from a bad one is the ability to resist the temptation to just spray the target with laserfire at any range. While this is defensible as a supression tactic, it does not do your team any favours in terms of clipping enemy weapons or coring a torso.

Boating 6 PPC's is insanely stupid aside from when you are blasting noobs. Playing peek a boo against a 6 PPC stalker and then wondering why you lost your side torso is not a proper way of dealing with it. Any mech boating 50% of its total weight in weapons is going to do it with an XL engine and you have pretty much no sustainable DPS once you get caught below 90m.

[MustrumRidcully]

Viper69, on 29 March 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Just take the damage our weapons currently do divide it by the number of times that weapons fires in a 10 second period. Drop armor back to table top values along with heat generation based on the above formula and you have a well balanced system around weapons that do less damage but are correct over time.

The Devs have painted themselves into a corner by upping armor and heat but then altering the way heat is dissipated and then having weapons do their TT value damage every shot. Its Beta supposedly its the time to change things like this so it would be nice to try it the way I described once. Oh wait we arent beta testers anymore I forgot.

I never - neither during the Closed Beta, nor during the Open Beta - got the impression that the devs would do actually any of the more radical things they'd need to do to fix this. I always hoped it would be otherwise, and at first, it wasn't that clear to me.

But It took them what - 6 months or so - until they lowered the PPC heat by 1 point, and most of the critique at the PPC came during the Single Heat Sink days, when a 6 PPC Stalker (even if the mech had already existed then) would still have been a ridiculous preposition.
It took them even longer to make a buff for the MG - a buff that is largely considered inconsequential and irrelevant, at least on the forums, and considering the low numbers of MG users I see, I figure in gameplay as well.

Back in Closed Beta, everyone was saying "Yes, heat may not be fine yet, but we don'T have Double Heat SInks yet, let's wait for that, then it will all be fixed". It wasn't fixed at all, they just added DHS in their weird state they are right now.

Significant change, and decisive changes showing that they know what they are doing? I see very little of that. This may be called a Beta, but I suggest - even if I still do otherwise because I can't help it - to not get your hopes up.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Tank Boy Ken, on 29 March 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

There is a themittani.com article dealing with that issue:

http://themittani.co.../mwo-king-alpha

It's from Dec 2012.

Go no further in your search for vital information.

Stay ahead of the curve.

Communication is Key.

Other stuff that might interest you (or not):
http://themittani.co...hwarrior-online

lol nice advertising

[LiminalSpace]

Kraven Kor, on 29 March 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

While you have a point, when you have been called primary, or round a corner into three enemy Atlai, torso twisting is not going to save you.

Should it? If I go around a corner and run into 3 big brawlers at close range, why shouldn't I be in deep, deep trouble?

[Metalcell]

I wish MWO would take some pointers from EVE Online, like adding penalties for stacking more then a few ppc's, also adding mech bonuses like range increase to medium laser or pulsed lasers for light mechs stuff like that.

this is just my opinion

Edited by Metalcell, 29 March 2013 - 09:49 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

Sybreed, on 28 March 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

This thread isn't about me or my tactics, I know how to deal with heavy alpha strikers, it's about what the game is turning into.

So shoot them first.

[Commander Kobold]

Terror Teddy, on 29 March 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

It jams because it has the POTENTIAL to shoot faster with the RISK of jamming - that's the main and only difference with the AC/5 vs UAC/5

because the fact that the U/AC has better range and shoots faster without double tapping doesn't mean anything right?

LiminalSpace, on 29 March 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Should it? If I go around a corner and run into 3 big brawlers at close range, why shouldn't I be in deep, deep trouble?

the example is turning the corner with one mech not three

[Taemien]

Sybreed, on 28 March 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

funny you say that, that's what I suggested to someone who complained about ERPPCs doing too much damage.... a month ago.

This thread isn't about me or my tactics, I know how to deal with heavy alpha strikers, it's about what the game is turning into.

The game hasn't turned into anything. No damage numbers have been increased since CB except for the large laser. Every other weapon is either the same or lower.

The problem is the community loads into a game and rushes the other team. They don't take time to use tactics or strategy, they just boat and shoot. Course the hilarious part about it is when tactics are used against them, they lose and lose horribly, and thats when you see a thread pop up asking to nerf LRMs, ECM, SRMs, SSRMs, AC20s, Gauss Rifles, Premades, Alphastriking, ect ect.

I keep suggesting to people not to get in the grand melee and they don't listen. They even mock me saying its their playstyle and they are going to keep doing it.. Then make a forum post asking to nerf something that countered them.

The community is the problem. There is tactics, variants, mechs, and configs available to do the style of play that the OP suggests. Its just many of them are hard counters to the brawling playstyle and then you hear nasty comments shoot up whenever they are used.

The trick is to keep doing them despite what public opinion is. Yes if a tactic is effective enough, you will be called a cheater, exploiter, and a hacker. Ignore them. Using ECM, LRMs, or long range weapons in conjunction with Jumpjets are legit tactics, as is capping a base from an opponent dug in with heavy slow assets.

Don't be afraid that such tactics will chase away new players. They have the unique ability to adapt to these things. Where hardnosed semi-vets will complain rather than overcome because they are more set in their ways. The ones complaining about such tactics are not newbies.

They want every game to be a great brawl because it is the path of least resistence. Of course they are the ones who will quickly get tired of the game too, so its a double edged sword. So I ask, do you want to give them what they want and watch them get bored and leave? Or make them rage quit?

I want to make them rage quit. Its much much more entertaining.

[Kraven Kor]

LiminalSpace, on 29 March 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Should it? If I go around a corner and run into 3 big brawlers at close range, why shouldn't I be in deep, deep trouble?

Was not making the case that this was a bad thing,

Just reminding some that "oh, you died without doing over 100 damage, you suck!" might have a poor understanding of how this all works.

Plenty of matches I get 300, 400, 500 damage.

Plenty I get 50 or so and then die because I went left when I should have went right, or charged when I should have delayed, etc.

[Sybreed]

thx everyone for the constructive feedback, it's cool to see this one not turn into a flame war! I hope one dev sees it and take into account some of the thoughts expressed here...

[Jack Corban]

MisterPlanetarian, on 29 March 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

"1 shotting" is awlways going to be the endgame of the FPS genre. Any roll/chance based hit or damage system does not belong in an FPS period. MWO is an FPS, it's different in that it has strategy game elements like loadouts included.

AC40 Jaegers with 60 damage Alpha strikes are dangerous because if the pilot knows when to shoot or not he will pretty much rip you limb from limb, that said it's hardly game breaking. Button mashing your weapons is not the way to properly play in MWO, alpha strikes or not. Good pilots time torso twisting to the enemys rate of fire. A good enemy in turn holds fire untill the target twists back to take a shot. This is key when fighting assaultmechs as they will always be able to take out anything smaller than themselves in a frontal cone fight if they can spread out the damage they take even a little. "Missing" a single AC20 Volley against an Assaultmech is pretty much a garantueed loss unless said mech is damaged allready.


Alpha also comes in many forms.

I do pretty well in Laserboats. My favourite is the STK-3F with 4x Large Lasers and 2x Medium Lasers. 22 DBL Heatsinks and a Standard 300 Engine lets me control key things like heat and positioning very well. Mastered skills give me a speed of 62kph and a rediculously fast 105 degree torso twist. An ammo free 46 Alpha strike is quite nice once you learn to pick your shots. What separates a good laserboat from a bad one is the ability to resist the temptation to just spray the target with laserfire at any range. While this is defensible as a supression tactic, it does not do your team any favours in terms of clipping enemy weapons or coring a torso.

Boating 6 PPC's is insanely stupid aside from when you are blasting noobs. Playing peek a boo against a 6 PPC stalker and then wondering why you lost your side torso is not a proper way of dealing with it. Any mech boating 50% of its total weight in weapons is going to do it with an XL engine and you have pretty much no sustainable DPS once you get caught below 90m.

No MWO is no FPS its a Mech Sim and u Sir F*ck off!

Edited by Jack Corban, 29 March 2013 - 05:46 PM.

[Sybreed]

Jack Corban, on 29 March 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

No MWO is no FPS its a Mech Sim and u Sir F*ck off!

well, so much for the no flame war thing...