67 replies to this topic

[Voodoo Circus]

I understand mechs have a all-terrain,fast deploiment, all purpouse and the ability to hold territory as infantary would compared to the type of warfare we know. But out of curiosity i would like to ask you guys familiar with the battletech lore why wouldnt such slow moving targets suffer greatly from any type of airboune menace such as fast-movers as they would put good effect on a mech target before they could even see the direction the attack was coming or even target the attacker.

does mechs have any way to garantee air superiority on their own or are they deployed only after air superiority is defined and used for territory conquest only?

[Aethon]

I'm not sure if you've read the stickies yet, but at this point, battlemechs will be the only assets on the field. No aerospace, no vehicles, no BA, no crunchies.

[Adridos]

Voodoo Circus, on 02 June 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

does mechs have any way to garantee air superiority on their own or are they deployed only after air superiority is defined and used for territory conquest only?

As Aethon said, we won't have anything else than mechs on the field.

But mechs can easily destroy aircraft if they have some equipment for it. Their radars will pick them up and firing a bunch missiles should be enough. Also, some mechs are designed around AA, like the Rifleman, for instance:

[OJ191]

Aethon I don't think he's asking about the game, I think he means within a lore battle how would they fare and when would they be deployed.

I think it's all dependant on what mechs you have, although I suspect the main thing would be you need to clear the air before you can send in dropships to deploy your mechs. (I'm not especially familiar with lore so don't judge me )

EDIT: semi-ninja'd

Edited by OJ191, 02 June 2012 - 01:09 AM.

[Gunfighter 11]

Are some of the original Mechas coming in the near future or is the mech types set.. i would like to see some of the older mech types to come about in the future.. whats the thoughts on that.

Gunfighter 11, on 02 June 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

Are some of the original Mechas coming in the near future or is the mech types set.. i would like to see some of the older mech types to come about in the future.. whats the thoughts on that.

I.E. the rifle man etc.

[Beazle]

If your talking about the BT universe, and not MW:O specifically, then there is a lot to consider.

First, no. There is nothing that guarantees air superiority. Air units in BT were very important tactically and strategically.

The high tech equivalent of the mech was the Aerospace Fighter. A fusion powered craft capable of both atmosphere and space operation. They were effective, and a well timed aerospace fighter strike could easily change the course of a battle. Despite this they were generally considered "secondary" to mechs for a couple of reasons.

1: Costs. They were really expensive, and difficult to recover via salvage. If a mech loses a leg, you scoop it up after the battle and patch a new one on. If an Aerospace fighter loses a wing you have a nifty crater, and the pilot's family gets a medal. Salvage was a GIANT part of the war-diminished BT universe.

2: Attrition. Few planets in the BT universe were as developed as modern day earth. Many only had one or two major settlements, which means one or two runways capable of launching fighters. Guess what got hit first in every invasion during the early succession wars? As a result, there are fewer aerospace units around now than in previous ages.

Non-fusion powered craft were rarely able to make a large difference on the battlefield outside of scouting and transport roles due to a few reasons.

1: Power to Weight. Without fusion power, air vehicles were able to mount fewer weapons and armor, the results on combat effectiveness are pretty obvious.

2: Logistics. Different planets have different gravities, and different atmospheres. A design that is great on one planet, might not even make it off the ground on another (at least, not without a lot of work). Not to mention the difficulties of transporting tons of jet fuel across interstellar space. Few military leaders are willing to invest in a weapon system that can only be used on one planet, although many planetary militias tasked with protecting their homes did use Jets and VTOLs.

Entire sourcebooks were put out, and more designs than i can count were put into BT canon for both Aerospace Fighters and Conventional Air. In the end, they generally weren't popular due more to player preferences than any logical reasoning. Aerotech rules were never quite what they should have been, and Mechs were just more fun.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Gunfighter 11, on 02 June 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

Are some of the original Mechas coming in the near future or is the mech types set.. i would like to see some of the older mech types to come about in the future.. whats the thoughts on that.



I.E. the rifle man etc.

what exactly do you mean? most of the 11 already announced mechs are from the very 1st hardware handbook from classic battletech, and all of them are from classic BT...Rifleman will most likely appear in the near future, along with many others

[LordDeathStrike]

ive always been a fan of laser ams auto maticaly shooting down inc air craft. swat them skeeters!

the main drawback of trying to use aircraft in battle tech, is that radar and long range weapon ranges arent very long range. by the time you mount ppcs or large lasers on a jet, theres no weight left for things like armor. ever see what happens to an aluminum aircraft when its hit with a salvo of missiles, or a gauss bullet, or ac2 fire, or machine gun fire, or laser fire? they dont sport case either when they have ammo, and they have no armor!

[Voodoo Circus]

thanks guys and girls! maybe this was posted on the wrong part of the forum...sorry. I was asking about the BT universe and not the game MW:O
The introduction of fusion cores and planetary variables is enought of a explanation on its own.
But thanks for your swift replyes
Its good to know more people as as passionate for the Bt MW world as i am
thanks

[Aethon]

Adridos, on 02 June 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

As Aethon said, we won't have anything else than mechs on the field.

But mechs can easily destroy aircraft if they have some equipment for it. Their radars will pick them up and firing a bunch missiles should be enough. Also, some mechs are designed around AA, like the Rifleman, for instance:

That's a sweet looking Rifleman, too...did you paint it?

[Adridos]

Aethon, on 02 June 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

That's a sweet looking Rifleman, too...did you paint it?

No, I just roamed a bit on the Google to find a nice pic to represent the Rifleman.

Whenever I post a miniature, you can be sure it's not mine since there is no Battletech shop closer to me than in the UK. Considering that, it would be really hard to get a hold of some and then you must count the fact that I'd have to find a modelling shop, etc...

[Cruxshadow]

The Rifleman is the best AAA Mechs ever. From what I understand from what has been posted that there isn't going to be any aeromechs or combat vehicles in the game for now.

[GreyGriffin]

I actually came to Battletech through Aerotech, by way of B5 wars, back in the day.

Air and space combat are very important to the BTU, but it is less central to the narrative, because the story of air superiority is rarely an exciting one that can be turned by character drama.

As mentioned previously, the Aerospace fighter was a victim of the circumstances of the Succession Wars, and conventional fighters lacked the punch of their fusion powered counterparts. But the fact of the matter is that air-to-ground against Battlemechs is not terribly effective.

Battlemechs have literally metric tons of armor, and they are notoriously difficult to put down. A mech with a damaged leg can limp on, a blown off arm just robs it of part of its armaments, and it would take several dedicated passes to ablate enough of a large 'mech's armor to make a difference, while a small 'mech is just as hard to hit as a small, nimble vehicle is for a modern jet fighter. (Moreso, even, since most ASF's have the aerodynamic qualities of a brick with an SRB attached to it.) Due to their redundant systems, sophisticated armor, and endoskeletal motive systems, the idea that you can just slap it with a bomb and be done with it exits the entire military paradigm. Most medium or larger mechs can survive a direct hit from a small cruise missile (Arrow IV) with just superficial damage. There's a reason they're the kings of the battlefield.

Meanwhile, you're exposing your relatively frail, expensive assets that are important for naval operations to antiaircraft fire from pissed off mechwarriors.

The primary use of Aerospace fighters is interception. They're great at knocking out incoming dropships, and screening the same dropships from interdiction. Once the ground battle starts, they'll certainly be available for a few passes if it's desperately needed, but it's usually left to the 'mechs to take care of each other.

[MrGray]

LordDeathStrike, on 02 June 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

theres no weight left for things like armor. ever see what happens to an aluminum aircraft when its hit with a salvo of missiles, or a gauss bullet, or ac2 fire, or machine gun fire, or laser fire? they dont sport case either when they have ammo, and they have no armor!

MW4 campaign players everywhere!

Quote

Though it has performed well in exercises, the Shivas critics have seized on the design's weak armor for it's size, only carrying ten tons of Andurien Composite 3 Ferro-Aluminum armor, though the eighteen Double Heat Sinks mounted on the base chassis has attracted praise.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/shiva

Edited by MrGray, 02 June 2012 - 04:58 AM.

[GreyGriffin]

ASF armor is more fragile than Battlemech armor. In the tabletop game, It can be penetrated directly by an attack that hits over a certain damage threshold based on the armor on the area, much like the BAR rating of Industrial armor.

This is to say nothing of the Control Roll Flustercuck that are LB-X Autocannons.

Despite this, MrGray does have a point. ASF's endurance (and indeed, the endurance of any conventional vehicle) has never really been properly expressed in any Mechwarrior game. A gauss slug is certainly dangerous to a light or medium ASF (which account for the majority of said fighters), but a Typhoon or Kirghiz probably won't be threatened by a lone mech or two.

Edited by GreyGriffin, 02 June 2012 - 05:03 AM.

[CaveMan]

GreyGriffin, on 02 June 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

As mentioned previously, the Aerospace fighter was a victim of the circumstances of the Succession Wars, and conventional fighters lacked the punch of their fusion powered counterparts. But the fact of the matter is that air-to-ground against Battlemechs is not terribly effective.

Mainly because bombs are horrendously, comically nerfed in BattleTech.

A ton of SRM ammunition? 200 damage if it explodes. Autocannon ammo? 100 points in a ton. Machine gun ammo is 400! But a one-ton high-explosive bomb? Just 10 damage. You're literally better off dropping crates of SRM ammunition on your enemies as a fighter pilot.

Laser-guided bombs should make Mechwarriors crap their pants when fighters come on the scene. Instead they just kind of tickle.

[Juiced]

its not effective because its the BT universe and in the BT universe the MECHs are the stars.

The reason planes/artillery are not effective is because mechs would be less cool if someone took four planes flying at 50k feet in the air and drop a couple laser guided munitions on the mechs and destroy them.

You can easily build a bomb that would destroy a lance of mechs without any issue. Because if you tell me for one second that the drop ship style air vehicles cant be modified to drop munitions instead of mechs.....

This wont work in every situation or battle, but i bet it would in enough of them.

[JazzySteel]

Tehbob, on 02 June 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

its not effective because its the BT universe and in the BT universe the MECHs are the stars.

The reason planes/artillery are not effective is because mechs would be less cool if someone took four planes flying at 50k feet in the air and drop a couple laser guided munitions on the mechs and destroy them.

You can easily build a bomb that would destroy a lance of mechs without any issue. Because if you tell me for one second that the drop ship style air vehicles cant be modified to drop munitions instead of mechs.....

This wont work in every situation or battle, but i bet it would in enough of them.

THERE it is. He is absolutely right. Me and my friends have actually had some fun conversations about whether or not an invasion force from Battletech could actually take over modern day earth.

There is enough lostech like long range sensors and heavy munitions that we would actually have a fighting chance (assuming all the different nations worked against a single invading foe)

[CaveMan]

Tehbob, on 02 June 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

its not effective because its the BT universe and in the BT universe the MECHs are the stars.

No sh*t. Sometimes they go too far, as though every time someone wins a match with units other than 'Mechs, they change the rules so that can't happen again. Anybody remember the old "turret mounted fusion engine fuel tank explosion" critical hit for vehicles? They really messed things up with the underpowered bombs though, because fighters pay such a huge price in maneuverability for carrying a bomb load, that you're better off just not using them, and doing ground attacks with Gauss rifles and AC/20s, whereas the fiction all describes fighters as mainly using bombs for ground attacks.

BTW there is, canonically, at least one class of DropShip that has a bomb bay holding about 20 tons of bombs.

[WoIf]

I always figured a beastly gunship would shred mechs if they had a good enough pilot and some far reaching guns. Guess having a torso that rotates 360 degrees is a bit of a buzkill.