37 replies to this topic

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

yes, game devlopment is expensive, but those numbers for a SINGLE MECH and a SINGLE MAP, are quite frankly, insane and if you watch/listen to the pannel, people actively SCOFF at PGI for this!

Also a standard MMO is quite different from what we have with MWO, and compairing MWO to a game like CoD is apples to oranges.

This isn't a AAA title guys... and frankly, this game should have had atleast 1/3 more content than it currently does, we should be fighting community warfare already and we should be on the precipice of the clan invasion.

As it sits, CW is a couple of months off, and I doubt we'll see the clans till next year. And I know for a FACT that a good number of players are simply waiting in the wings for the clans. So PGI is loosing even MORE money by not having them ready.

Kristov, you also cannot take a company at face value. They will do anything to defend their image... the rampant deletion of posts here on the forums is one example, anything that can be taken as "dissention in the ranks" get's deleted or censored if they catch wind. And no offence, but you're the one attempting to make a point about IGP/PGI refuting the claim, thus the burden of proof is on your shoulders. Please, feel free to give me concrete proof of your point, and if you do so then I will no longer use the fact that IGP misapproperated the funds secured by the MWO founders program.

[LiminalSpace]

Comparing professional designer efforts and costs with "community" efforts is hardly apples to apples. Someone in the community frequently doesn't have to absorb the cost of tools, work space, benefits, etc. Community efforts have voluntary QA, or "QA on release." They host little, have no back-end infrastructure. They are accountable to no one but themselves. It's a completely different world.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Hawkeye 72, on 29 March 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Less than that actually...closer to a year and a half by September of 2013

which is funny theyre trying to launch it this september.
minimal viable product indeed.

Hell, I thought the devs for STO were insane for taking on that workload. This is actually WORSE.

[slimebucket]

I posted a post here http://mwomercs.com/...-various-rants/ about how I feeel PGI isn't using this open beta as a BETA at all.

The only thing they releasing is stuff you can spend money on. No fixes, no testing, no balance tests.

there is a huge joystick and peripheral bug right now making them unsable unless you use a special fix, LRM'S ECM, collision, map bugs, texture popping, machine guns not doing the damage the advertise, ect ect yet all we get is

new camo's, new hero mechs, new coolant and other modules you can buy.. but NO game fixes, game mechanic tweaks.

Honestly, wtf you doing focusing on coloring skins in beta? that **** comes after beta


This game just feels more and more likes its getting corrupted by money and each day it get greedier and greedier.

[DegeneratePervert]

I think the game is pretty darn good for being just a little over 1.5 years old. I've logged a ton of hours, so they must be doing something right.

EDIT: As for the whole "they're only creating things that we can spend money on! They're robbing us all!"

Game development is very, very, VERY expensive. I'd be worried if they WEREN'T producing things for us to throw money at.

Edited by DegeneratePervert, 29 March 2013 - 02:19 PM.

[INSEkT L0GIC]

Everyone should buy at least $1 million in MC right now so we can turn a small company into a big one.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Jade Kitsune, on 29 March 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

yes, game devlopment is expensive, but those numbers for a SINGLE MECH and a SINGLE MAP, are quite frankly, insane and if you watch/listen to the pannel, people actively SCOFF at PGI for this!

Also a standard MMO is quite different from what we have with MWO, and compairing MWO to a game like CoD is apples to oranges.

This isn't a AAA title guys... and frankly, this game should have had atleast 1/3 more content than it currently does, we should be fighting community warfare already and we should be on the precipice of the clan invasion.

As it sits, CW is a couple of months off, and I doubt we'll see the clans till next year. And I know for a FACT that a good number of players are simply waiting in the wings for the clans. So PGI is loosing even MORE money by not having them ready.

Kristov, you also cannot take a company at face value. They will do anything to defend their image... the rampant deletion of posts here on the forums is one example, anything that can be taken as "dissention in the ranks" get's deleted or censored if they catch wind. And no offence, but you're the one attempting to make a point about IGP/PGI refuting the claim, thus the burden of proof is on your shoulders. Please, feel free to give me concrete proof of your point, and if you do so then I will no longer use the fact that IGP misapproperated the funds secured by the MWO founders program.

The costs they gave fit in with the industry standards, people seem to think that because a group of people who made a mod didn't have the same costs means that PGI are a bunch of slackjawed inbred morons for spending so much. They are professionals, in that they do this for a living, and that means the costs for things are much higher, as has already been explained time and time again.

Jade, I don't have to prove that IGP didn't spend that money on MWT, they already did that. I'm not the one who's pushing for a libel lawsuit by spreading lies that directly impact the reputation of the companies involved, which directly impacts possible future earnings, which could be a lot of money since they've already taken in over $5 million usd on just the Founder's program. YOU need to look up the truth before you get a nicely worded threat from a lawyer, I know they use those in Canada just like in the US, they are just more polite then US lawyers.

And Jade, the running of the forums is actually pretty damn lax compared to most game forums run by the company who made the game or published it. There is no free speech on a forum, it's always covered by rules and if you break em..well..the posts get removed. Complaining about something is fine, if you do it in the proper forum and context, but what we see on these forums is NOT that and you know it, hells you are one of the people breaking the rules, so I'm sure it IS a big issue for you. Then again, people who break the rules are usually the most vocal about how repressive those who enforce them are when they get caught.

[tuokaerf]

I probably should quit this now while I'm ahead, but I'll bite:

Jade Kitsune, on 29 March 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

yes, game devlopment is expensive, but those numbers for a SINGLE MECH and a SINGLE MAP, are quite frankly, insane and if you watch/listen to the pannel, people actively SCOFF at PGI for this!

I take it you didn't read my breakdown of development costs. How would you otherwise explain the cost of them. I could agree that they might take longer than they should, I would assume the the first few took longer than "normal". Development teams typically start slow as they learn to work with one another and get in rhythm with a measureable development pace.

Jade Kitsune, on 29 March 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

This isn't a AAA title guys... and frankly, this game should have had atleast 1/3 more content than it currently does, we should be fighting community warfare already and we should be on the precipice of the clan invasion.

Again, for a year and a half of effort, what do you expect specifically?

Jade Kitsune, on 29 March 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Kristov, you also cannot take a company at face value. They will do anything to defend their image... the rampant deletion of posts here on the forums is one example, anything that can be taken as "dissention in the ranks" get's deleted or censored if they catch wind. And no offence, but you're the one attempting to make a point about IGP/PGI refuting the claim, thus the burden of proof is on your shoulders. Please, feel free to give me concrete proof of your point, and if you do so then I will no longer use the fact that IGP misapproperated the funds secured by the MWO founders program.

Of course they will defend themselves. They also have to keep some sort of peace and order on the forum. 50 threads about the exact same topic isn't helpful to users or PGI.

And you're the one who claimed IGP took the money and ran. Where did that come from?

[tuokaerf]

slimebucket, on 29 March 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

I posted a post here http://mwomercs.com/...-various-rants/ about how I feeel PGI isn't using this open beta as a BETA at all.

The only thing they releasing is stuff you can spend money on. No fixes, no testing, no balance tests.

That's a pretty big sweeping statement. Read over some of the patch notes:

http://mwomercs.com/...61-patch-notes/

Alongside the new map, new mechs, one or two fun content things theres a whole slew of changes based on feedback, bug fixes, and balance. You get these every two weeks.

slimebucket, on 29 March 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

there is a huge joystick and peripheral bug right now making them unsable unless you use a special fix, LRM'S ECM, collision, map bugs, texture popping, machine guns not doing the damage the advertise, ect ect yet all we get is

new camo's, new hero mechs, new coolant and other modules you can buy.. but NO game fixes, game mechanic tweaks.

Honestly, wtf you doing focusing on coloring skins in beta? that **** comes after beta


This game just feels more and more likes its getting corrupted by money and each day it get greedier and greedier.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

DegeneratePervert, on 29 March 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

I think the game is pretty darn good for being just a little over 1.5 years old. I've logged a ton of hours, so they must be doing something right.

EDIT: As for the whole "they're only creating things that we can spend money on! They're robbing us all!"

Game development is very, very, VERY expensive. I'd be worried if they WEREN'T producing things for us to throw money at.

so what do you feelk about the having to have premium time to play CW or have merc units thing?

[Sifright]

Jade Kitsune, on 29 March 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

yes, game devlopment is expensive, but those numbers for a SINGLE MECH and a SINGLE MAP, are quite frankly, insane and if you watch/listen to the pannel, people actively SCOFF at PGI for this!

Also a standard MMO is quite different from what we have with MWO, and compairing MWO to a game like CoD is apples to oranges.

This isn't a AAA title guys... and frankly, this game should have had atleast 1/3 more content than it currently does, we should be fighting community warfare already and we should be on the precipice of the clan invasion.

As it sits, CW is a couple of months off, and I doubt we'll see the clans till next year. And I know for a FACT that a good number of players are simply waiting in the wings for the clans. So PGI is loosing even MORE money by not having them ready.

Kristov, you also cannot take a company at face value. They will do anything to defend their image... the rampant deletion of posts here on the forums is one example, anything that can be taken as "dissention in the ranks" get's deleted or censored if they catch wind. And no offence, but you're the one attempting to make a point about IGP/PGI refuting the claim, thus the burden of proof is on your shoulders. Please, feel free to give me concrete proof of your point, and if you do so then I will no longer use the fact that IGP misapproperated the funds secured by the MWO founders program.

Yea, i'm with you.

Supposedly it takes only a month for a mech to be completed start to finish, for that to be 60k dollars when industry average for programmers is 80k per year salary is nuts, frankly I think that number is inflated by executive and other numbers and the wages for the people actually working on the art is likely to be a lot less.

Basically 60k is a man year of work.

Given we know that it takes only a month to make the mech, PGI has to have ten people working on this mech who each make 60k per annum.

Sorry I don't buy it. Thats crap.

Either the figure is being inflated or pgi have hired some people with questionable work ethics.

What do they do go "Hey boss i've added my one vertex to the model for the day i'm off to the pub now"

As for the maps costing 250k... Buwhahahaha Yeaaaaa

Kristov Kerensky, on 29 March 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

The costs they gave fit in with the industry standards,

Liess

you are saying a mech would take one artist with a well rounded skill set an entire year to make?

That is craaaap

Edit: a man year for the average gaming industry programmer works out as 2,880 hours.

Sorry I don't think any mech in this game has had nearly that much time put into it.

Edited by Sifright, 29 March 2013 - 03:38 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

@MW Buddha

My ability to get online for serious searching is pretty limited, arm. Got a link to that?

Not sure it really bothers me, if they do. F2P means you can play the game for free, doesn't mean you glhave access to all parts of the game. But I would like to know specifics before I applaud or condemn them, either way. Too many people already on here spewing rumors with no actual facts behind them, I sure don't wanna be one myself.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aaaaaaaaaand..... Nevermind. There it is at the.top of Gen Dis waiting for me.

[Dr Warp Effect]

If the costs they give are accurate then they did not capitalize their development properly from the beginning. Hence, MVP design philosophy. The two things that MVP design approach guarantee for a game that is undercapitilized is too much effort to working on things to try to acquire the shortfall in capital, and a very inefficient development. This is because things that are done to get a minimally viable product have to be recoded later as the game is brought up to standards for full release. For example, a minimally viable car can be designed without regard for a great many missing pieces, like seats for passengers other than the driver, hood, trunk lid, glass, etc. But when you start adding these pieces you may have to redesign the existing pieces to work with the new ones. When you design a car with the finished car in mind, the design takes all this into account from the beginning meaning there should be only minimal reworking. When I saw the comment from PGI about looking to release once a MVP was achieved I predicted much of what has happened since. Actually, I am surprised so many problems have shown up as predicted since I really thought they would avoid at least some of their design quagmire. The fact that all sales I have seen are MC costs only instead of also applying to in-game credit purchases are another sign of trouble,

Edited by Dr Warp Effect, 29 March 2013 - 04:19 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Sifright, the cost is what it is..and it isn't at the same time. There's the actual wage cost of the people doing the actual Mech models, there's the wages of the people doing the texturing, there's the wage cost of the people who test the 'final' product and pronounce it ready for REAL testing. Then you've got the the costs of the building those people are in, rent, utilities, taxes, benefits for those employees...and lets not forget the artist who did the original artwork that the model is based on, gotta include THAT cost as well, PR costs(those pics on the front page and in the magazines and all) and other assorted costs related directly or indirectly to that 1 single Mech in the game finally. Yeah, not a bad price really.

Compared to what other dev companies AND publishers combined have put into FAILED titles, I'd say PGI is doing pretty damn well on the money use so far. 5 million from the Founder's sales..lotta money right? Not even a 10th of the cost of your standard run of the mill FAILED title for development costs ALONE, not including PR, packaging and shipping costs.

Seriously, gaming nets BILLIONS in PROFIT every year people, they spend a hell of lot of money on games, but it's nothing compared to what they can make.

[tuokaerf]

Sifright, on 29 March 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Yea, i'm with you.

Supposedly it takes only a month for a mech to be completed start to finish, for that to be 60k dollars when industry average for programmers is 80k per year salary is nuts, frankly I think that number is inflated by executive and other numbers and the wages for the people actually working on the art is likely to be a lot less.

Basically 60k is a man year of work.

Given we know that it takes only a month to make the mech, PGI has to have ten people working on this mech who each make 60k per annum.

Sorry I don't buy it. Thats crap.

Either the figure is being inflated or pgi have hired some people with questionable work ethics.

What do they do go "Hey boss i've added my one vertex to the model for the day i'm off to the pub now"

As for the maps costing 250k... Buwhahahaha Yeaaaaa

Either you haven't read anything in this post or you're just trolling.

I'll do the math in US dollars, since that's what it seems they're quoting and what I know. When they're talking the cost to develop something, that number is typically derived from something like this:

1) TOTAL cost of employee

- Salary
- Benefits
- Depreciable needed assets (computer, etc)
- Tools (software)
- Workspace

2) Business expenses

- License fees
- Contract fees
- Rent/Lease for office
- Utilities (gas, electric, Internet, water, etc)

We'll use the map example. The team is comprised of 7 people (per PGI), and let's say 3 engineers, 2 designers/artists, and 2 QA. Let's say the average cost of a map is $150,000 and it takes 12 weeks from start to finish.

Here are the yearly salaries, about average for a qualified person in the job:

- Software Developer/Team lead: $70,000
- Software Developer 2: $60,000
- Software Developer 3: $60,000
- Graphic Artist 1: $45,000
- Graphic Artist 2: $45,000
- Quality Assurance 1: $35,000
- Quality Assurance 2: $35,000

Now add in expenses related to benefits. Cost of benefits (at least in the US) are about 1.4 times the yearly salary and I think Canada is similar:

Yearly salaries change to:

- Software Developer/Team lead: $98,000
- Software Developer 2: $84,000
- Software Developer 3: $84,000
- Graphic Artist 1: $63,000
- Graphic Artist 2: $63,000
- Quality Assurance 1: $49,000
- Quality Assurance 2: $49,000

Now let's assume the following for each person:

- $5,000 per person yearly cost of computer + needed software
- $2,000 per person "shared cost" of office rent/lease (8x8 cube, their part of the breakroom, etc)

You would also factor in utilities, etc, but no idea on the cost of that so we'll just leave it out. There are other factors too, such as marketing, web design, etc. that we'll also leave out.

Here are the new costs of each:

- Software Developer/Team lead: $105,000
- Software Developer 2: $91,000
- Software Developer 3: $91,000
- Graphic Artist 1: $70,000
- Graphic Artist 2: $70,000
- Quality Assurance 1: $56,000
- Quality Assurance 2: $56,000

Over a year, that team costs you at least $539,000, so about $10,365 a week.

So for a 12 week project, that team's time costs you $124,380 just for the items we looked at. Again, we haven't factored in the product manager's time, marketing team's time, costs related to payment for IP or to publisher, web team's time, etc.

We are absolutely in the ballpark for the figures they presented and these are straight industry standard numbers.

Edit: Poor spelling.

Edited by tuokaerf, 29 March 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[Sifright]

tuokaerf, on 29 March 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Either you haven't read anything in this post or you're just trolling.

I'll do the math in US dollars, since that's what it seems they're quoting and what I know. When they're talking the cost to develop something, that number is typically derived from something like this:

1) TOTAL cost of employee

- Salary
- Benefits
- Depreciable needed assets (computer, etc)
- Tools (software)
- Workspace

2) Business expenses

- License fees
- Contract fees
- Rent/Lease for office
- Utilities (gas, electric, Internet, water, etc)

We'll use the map example. The team is comprised of 7 people (per PGI), and let's say 3 engineers, 2 designers/artists, and 2 QA. Let's say the average cost of a map is $150,000 and it takes 12 weeks from start to finish.

Here are the yearly salaries, about average for a qualified person in the job:

- Software Developer/Team lead: $70,000
- Software Developer 2: $60,000
- Software Developer 3: $60,000
- Graphic Artist 1: $45,000
- Graphic Artist 2: $45,000
- Quality Assurance 1: $35,000
- Quality Assurance 2: $35,000

Now add in expenses related to benefits. Cost of benefits (at least in the US) are about 1.4 times the yearly salary and I think Canada is similar:

Yearly salaries change to:

- Software Developer/Team lead: $98,000
- Software Developer 2: $84,000
- Software Developer 3: $84,000
- Graphic Artist 1: $63,000
- Graphic Artist 2: $63,000
- Quality Assurance 1: $49,000
- Quality Assurance 2: $49,000

Now let's assume the following for each person:

- $5,000 per person yearly cost of computer + needed software
- $2,000 per person "shared cost" of office rent/lease (8x8 cube, their part of the breakroom, etc)

You would also factor in utilities, etc, but no idea on the cost of that so we'll just leave it out. There are other factors too, such as marketing, web design, etc. that we'll also leave out.

Here are the new costs of each:

- Software Developer/Team lead: $105,000
- Software Developer 2: $91,000
- Software Developer 3: $91,000
- Graphic Artist 1: $70,000
- Graphic Artist 2: $70,000
- Quality Assurance 1: $56,000
- Quality Assurance 2: $56,000

Over a year, that team costs you at least $539,000, so about $10,365 a week.

So for a 12 week project, that team's time costs you $124,380 just for the items we looked at. Again, we haven't factored in the product manager's time, marketing team's time, costs related to payment for IP or to publisher, web team's time, etc.

We are absolutely in the ballpark for the figures they presented and these are straight industry standard numbers.

Edit: Poor spelling.

So basically your figures agree with me 60k for a single mech is likely inflating the figures.

Pgi have stated start to finish a mech is a four week project.

I'd also dispute your wage figures as they are certainly higher than I've seen in other comparable industries for programmers and engineers although this depends largely on experience of personnel involved.

[tuokaerf]

Sifright, on 29 March 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

So basically your figures agree with me 60k for a single mech is likely inflating the figures.

Pgi have stated start to finish a mech is a four week project.

I'd also dispute your wage figures as they are certainly higher than I've seen in other comparable industries for programmers and engineers although this depends largely on experience of personnel involved.

PGI stated it was about $60,000, 10 people, and 8 weeks per map.

http://youtu.be/Cwbry6NeFuw

So let's go cheaper and add 3 more QA folk to get us to 10 team members. Now we're at about $13,596 per week. After 8 weeks we're well over their stated budget, so PGI's doing that one a bit cheaper on team composition.

As for average software engineer salary, it ranges from $60,000-90,000 a year. I went a bit lower due to PGI being a smaller shop.

Few links after a quick Google:

http://www.glassdoor..._KO8,25_IP5.htm

http://money.cnn.com...napshots/1.html

http://money.usnews....ogrammer/salary