94 replies to this topic

[Saurok]

corsair114, on 07 November 2011 - 11:01 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity, what advantages would the Artemis IV FCS confer to completely dumbfire SRMs?

Since Artemis IV FCS can be used with SRM's that means that they are not dumbfire type of weapon.
SRM's should have limited target tracking ability. Once fired, they try to hit location where crosshair was
during the launch. Or they follow crosshair after the launch. Either way, they should scatter to longer distances
due their short range.


Artemis IV FCS could increase accuracy of SRM's by decreasing scattering or increasing the "homing" ability.

MRM's and RL's are true dumbfire weapons.

Edited by Saurok, 07 November 2011 - 11:16 PM.

[ice trey]

Lorebot, on 07 November 2011 - 09:55 AM, said:

Um...No.

SRMs have always been dumb fire, that's why Streak SRMs exist.

MRMs are semi tracking and LRMs are full target lock capable

Actually, none of them are supposed to have ANY tracking.

SRMs are dumbfire
LRMs are dumbfire
MRMs are Dumberfire... I'm guessing they forego novelties like stabilizer fins or something in favor of lighter weight and missilespamming.

Missiles are only supposed to be homing when there's something extra added to them, like Streak SRMs, Narc-equipped SRMs or LRMs against a NARC'd target, Semi-guided SRMs and LRMs against a TAG'd target. That sort of thing. Even Artemis FCS is just there to keep the missiles flying in a tighter grouping, and you have to get Artemis EQUIPPED missiles to get the advantages.

All of these guidance systems are Star-League technologies, and should thus be rare for the inner sphere at this point in the game. Even only SOME of the clan weapons will be homing weapons. Most won't be.

Edited by ice trey, 07 November 2011 - 11:41 PM.

[Captain Nice HD]

Uh, no. SRMs and LRMs are not dumbfire. Else there wouldn't be all the fuss about removing the guidance systems to make MRMs. Don't make me quote Tech Manual.

Edited by Captain Nice HD, 07 November 2011 - 11:43 PM.

[CaveMan]

This is how I see it:

LRMs and SRMs are inertial guided like JDAM bombs. The 'Mech's fire control radar gives you the distance and velocity of the target and when you fire, that data is loaded into the missiles. LRMs are lobbed on a ballistic trajectory so they strike the point on the ground where the target should be. SRMs are fired level so they pass through the center of where the target should be. Spread happens because the missiles only make mid-course corrections to roughly intersect with the target, rather than seeking it out.

Streak SRMs are actively controlled by either a laser or radar system on the 'Mech that guides them into the target. This is why the launchers are heavier, each one has its own guidance system.

MRMs and rockets have no guidance at all. The pilot fires them by iron sights and estimates the amount of lead necessary by dead reckoning.

Artemis IV uses an infrared beam that paints a "box" in the sky that the missiles have to fly through, similar to the Russian Vikhr anti-tank missile. The missiles have an onboard sensor that keeps them inside the virtual box, resulting in tighter groups (and thus the bonus to missile hits).

Narc pods emit a radio signal that missiles home directly in on.

[ice trey]

Captain Nice HD, on 07 November 2011 - 11:42 PM, said:

Uh, no. SRMs and LRMs are not dumbfire. Else there wouldn't be all the fuss about removing the guidance systems to make MRMs. Don't make me quote Tech Manual.

You know... I think you're right. Older editions and fluff tended to refer to LRMs and SRMs as being dumbfire rocket packs, but I guess that now that MRMs and Rocket Launcher packs are included, they've sort of retconned their description (Though their gameplay use has remained the same with negligible if any changes)

Edited by ice trey, 08 November 2011 - 01:49 AM.

[minobu tetsuharu]

Actually decades ago when the Mechforce magazines were canon it was explained that EWAR is so heavy in Btech that SRMs and LRMs are heavily neutered in their abilities to track a target. Then the magazines became uncanon and it wasn't until recently they specifically made the ewar fluff specifically valid again.

[Creel]

CaveMan, on 08 November 2011 - 12:14 AM, said:

This is how I see it:

LRMs and SRMs are inertial guided like JDAM bombs. The 'Mech's fire control radar gives you the distance and velocity of the target and when you fire, that data is loaded into the missiles. LRMs are lobbed on a ballistic trajectory so they strike the point on the ground where the target should be. SRMs are fired level so they pass through the center of where the target should be. Spread happens because the missiles only make mid-course corrections to roughly intersect with the target, rather than seeking it out.

Streak SRMs are actively controlled by either a laser or radar system on the 'Mech that guides them into the target. This is why the launchers are heavier, each one has its own guidance system.

MRMs and rockets have no guidance at all. The pilot fires them by iron sights and estimates the amount of lead necessary by dead reckoning.

Artemis IV uses an infrared beam that paints a "box" in the sky that the missiles have to fly through, similar to the Russian Vikhr anti-tank missile. The missiles have an onboard sensor that keeps them inside the virtual box, resulting in tighter groups (and thus the bonus to missile hits).

Narc pods emit a radio signal that missiles home directly in on.

This kind of nails the case down against "LRM and SRMs are dumb-fire". They get bonuses from NARC, so they must be guided.

end of line

[Frantic Pryde]

Creel, on 08 November 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

This kind of nails the case down against "LRM and SRMs are dumb-fire". They get bonuses from NARC, so they must be guided.

end of line

Thank you

[infinite xaer0]

WOW... read this **** before you start arguing on the subject.

SRM's ...are direct fire missiles, it doesn't say that they're dumb fire though

MRM's ...are "dead fire" missiles, but it appears that they follow flat trajectories, instead of ballistic trajectories

LRM's ...doesn't specifically say what they are, but if they weren't guided, you wouldn't be able to hit jack **** with them at long range.

Creel, on 08 November 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

This kind of nails the case down against "LRM and SRMs are dumb-fire". They get bonuses from NARC, so they must be guided.

end of line

this.

LRM's and SRM's also benefit from guidance devices like the Artemis IV FCS, meaning that they HAVE to have some sort of guidance.

[theginganinja]

Creel, on 08 November 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

This kind of nails the case down against "LRM and SRMs are dumb-fire". They get bonuses from NARC, so they must be guided.

end of line

First off, I do agree that SRMs and LRMs should be guided (as I posted earlier, SRMs should have a limited cone of correction, sort of like the needler from Halo 3, Streaks should have a lock-on time of a few seconds, then be dead-on, and LRMs should have a lock-on and imperfect accuracy like in MW3). MRMs, of course, should be dumb fire.
HOWEVER, the ability to use NARC and Artemis does not prove that standard LRMs and SRMs are guided, since the rules specifically state you have to purchase more expensive ammunition that is actually designed to take advantage of those systems for them to do anything - if you have standard LRM or SRM ammunition, you can have as many NARC pods and Artemis systems as you want, but they aren't going to do anything

Edited by irishwarrior, 08 November 2011 - 08:37 AM.

[Creel]

irishwarrior, on 08 November 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

First off, I do agree that SRMs and LRMs should be guided (as I posted earlier, SRMs should have a limited cone of correction, sort of like the needler from Halo 3, Streaks should have a lock-on time of a few seconds, then be dead-on, and LRMs should have a lock-on and imperfect accuracy like in MW3). MRMs, of course, should be dumb fire.
HOWEVER, the ability to use NARC and Artemis does not prove that standard LRMs and SRMs are guided, since the rules specifically state you have to purchase more expensive ammunition that is actually designed to take advantage of those systems for them to do anything - if you have standard LRM or SRM ammunition, you can have as many NARC pods and Artemis systems as you want, but they aren't going to do anything

fair point, but if the new missiles (with special guidance package) can be fired from a standard launcher, and have similar flight characteristics (which they do), then the argument there is no guidance on standard missiles falls apart. If the missiles weren't already capable of a design which allows some guidance and maneuverability, then the delivery system would have to be reworked for a payload that does incorporate those capabilities. If there's no room for guidance in normal missiles, then missiles that did have guidance would be too big for the launchers.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

lol, go tell a Quake or Unreal player that 'unguided' rockets suck I've seen players perform surgery with them. Way I see it, standard SRMs should fly in a semi-straight line from your mech to your reticule with a little dispersion (cause they're missiles). No curving to track a target, no semi-guided ****, this is MechWarrior and these are SRMS. They are literally rocket-shotguns when you see them play out on the TT. Back in my MW2:Mercs days, SRMs were nasty cause when you properly lead your target, they walked right into your 'dumb-fire' SRM6 volley for massive damage. Rocket Launchers are a later addition to the game and should not factor into SRM performance. RL's do less damage, even more inaccurate, and best (worst?) they're OS (one shot). If you make them 'semi-guided' as people want, then you take away from the spectacle that is the mech fight, SRMs are supposed to cause a lot of mayhem and bright explosions...this is mechwarrior...not America's Army. Another plus to being dumb-fire, the game may make you consider 'friendly-fire' potentials or vice versa, hitting multiple clustered enemies. In an era before proliferated LX-B systems, SRMs are going to be your cluster bombs of choice.

[Tierloc]

Creel, on 07 November 2011 - 12:59 PM, said:

MW4 broke LRMs by making them streaks (guaranteed hit with lock-on).

LRM lock ons were not as effective unless you continued to paint the target after firing until contact. Sure you can lock on, look away and fire before losing lock, but the missles tracking efficiency was greatly reduced.

I haven't seen anyone mention SRMs also added alot of heat to the target. Damage/heat made them the perfect weapon in certain battle situations.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Tierloc, on 08 November 2011 - 09:23 AM, said:

I haven't seen anyone mention SRMs also added alot of heat to the target. Damage/heat made them the perfect weapon in certain battle situations.

standard SRM's have never added heat to a target, inferno SRM warheads do this; but inferno ammo is relatively uncommon for mech-based launchers. Inferno SRMs are generally more seen as the ammo of choice for anti-Mech infantry in the novels

[Tierloc]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 08 November 2011 - 10:14 AM, said:

the novels.

Unfortunately the fictional stories and the historical accuracy of the novels is not going to stop me from using heat weapons, should their use be provided and work correctly. If the discussion about coolant usage takes hold for some stupid reason, either heat weapons will be the dominate weapon of choice or the developer will have to nerf them when every fan boy complaining about coolant then complains about being shutdown all the time with no recourse left to them. Little changes can have huge affects to gameplay, historical accuracy or not, this is not the first video game. Developers do it all the time, and I'm not talking about just mech.

The whole idea for this game is still fictional and limiting the realm of the mechwarrior franchise to novels that appears 50 people have read is extremely limiting. A fragile attempt at "reboot", truth be told. The baseline is a good jumping point, though. This needs to be a "this isn't your father's mechwarrior" kind of moment. And while trying to remember that, the comparisons to MW4 and MW3 abound everywhere - regardless of where and who are making those claims about balance and fairness and weapons packages etc. I thought MW4 was a fantastic game and I still play it today after 8 years.

In the case of MW4, as referenced in my post's quote, there were two sets of these missles, SRM and CSTRK - one defined as IS and one as Clan. The major differences other than the targeting without lock for streaks was the heat by the srms and the heat generated by firing them. They had the same damage, weight, recycle time and reload capacity.

That may be a simple weapon system compared to a recovered clan handbook page mentioned in a short story in a side plot of one of the 50+ novels about battle tech that you only read because one of the main characters thought of it while sitting on the can between Solaris matches.. but the model worked for 10 years.

[Saurok]

Tierloc, on 08 November 2011 - 11:48 AM, said:

In the case of MW4, as referenced in my post's quote, there were two sets of these missles, SRM and CSTRK - one defined as IS and one as Clan. The major differences other than the targeting without lock for streaks was the heat by the srms and the heat generated by firing them. They had the same damage, weight, recycle time and reload capacity.

MekTek unofficial patches added inferno "effect" to standard SRM's. Before that, they didn't generate any heat to target.
And that is just regular SRM loaded with Inferno warheads which should not damage the target, only add more heat.

And if Devs follow tabletop rules, there is limit how much heat can be generated from outside sources. That would greatly reduce
any inferno or flamer spam.

[Tierloc]

11/06/04 was 2.1a.. not sure I was playing mercs yet.

It seems to me without heat the difference between the two it makes the srms obsolete unless you're forced to use them (IE only IS weapons on IS chassis).

Did I just read you correctly say that external heat should be limited?

[Saurok]

Tierloc, on 08 November 2011 - 12:17 PM, said:

11/06/04 was 2.1a.. not sure I was playing mercs yet.

It seems to me without heat the difference between the two it makes the srms obsolete unless you're forced to use them (IE only IS weapons on IS chassis).

Did I just read you correctly say that external heat should be limited?

IS SRM's where pretty much obsolete before MekTek patches.

Yes, there is rule in tabletop game which limits external heat to 15 points. While it still can cripple some beam boats,
it wont make flamers and infernos overpowered. This would be great add to MechWarrior as well.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Tierloc, on 08 November 2011 - 11:48 AM, said:

Unfortunately the fictional stories and the historical accuracy of the novels is not going to stop me from using heat weapons, should their use be provided and work correctly.

no one said you could not mount them, I was merely pointing out where they generally occur and why you don't see them often mounted to mechs. as Saurok points out; not only is the standard SRM-heat effect a MekTek fabrication, true inferno rounds don't do damage. If you only could choose one; which one would it be? most people take the damage, because most stock designs are heat-balanced against over heating.

Tierloc, on 08 November 2011 - 11:48 AM, said:

The whole idea for this game is still fictional and limiting the realm of the mechwarrior franchise to novels that appears 50 people have read is extremely limiting. A fragile attempt at "reboot", truth be told. The baseline is a good jumping point, though. This needs to be a "this isn't your father's mechwarrior" kind of moment. And while trying to remember that, the comparisons to MW4 and MW3 abound everywhere - regardless of where and who are making those claims about balance and fairness and weapons packages etc. I thought MW4 was a fantastic game and I still play it today after 8 years.

I actually pointed back to MW2 doing SRMs quite fine, and I also pointed to other game examples of dumb-fire rockets not being that hard to use. Again look up rocket launchers in Quake and Unreal, see how awesome they really are. So from a gameplay mechanic, you just want point-and-click magic rockets to be the norm instead of just learning how to time shots...but wait you'll have to learn that anyway in this game! Also, more than 50 people read the novels and source material, this thing goes back before I was born and I understand this, why can't you? a reboot of MechWarrior has to be just that - MechWarrior, you can't avoid it...

Tierloc, on 08 November 2011 - 11:48 AM, said:

In the case of MW4, as referenced in my post's quote, there were two sets of these missles, SRM and CSTRK - one defined as IS and one as Clan. The major differences other than the targeting without lock for streaks was the heat by the srms and the heat generated by firing them. They had the same damage, weight, recycle time and reload capacity.

right, this exemplifies the differences of IS and Clan tech levels. What you don't see is the IS versions of STRK SRMs because MW4 is pretty much Battletech:Lite. MW4 was limited in scope of the game due to constraints on the hardware end of things mixed with a simplification of the mechlab, where you can stuff any clan tech on any IS chassis thus making any difference in tech trees 100% moot.

Tierloc, on 08 November 2011 - 11:48 AM, said:

That may be a simple weapon system compared to a recovered clan handbook page mentioned in a short story in a side plot of one of the 50+ novels about battle tech that you only read because one of the main characters thought of it while sitting on the can between Solaris matches.. but the model worked for 10 years.

I lol'ed at this. SRMs have worked the way I described for twenty-five years, and 2 video games (Mw1, Mw2:Mercs).
the MW2 series even had infernos built in, and stil acted the same 'dumb-fire' way.
If you havent noticed, the two primary groups of missiles: SRM and LRM fulfill two weapon roles. LRMs are accurate, long range, sniper fire. SRMs were always meant to be in-your-face missile blooms of destruction...not accurate and pinpointed (until STRK tech). In terms of this MW:O, 85% of the SRM tech that will be encountered due to canon will be basic SRM launchers.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 08 November 2011 - 12:30 PM.

[Creel]

SRMs, aren't obsolete, they just aren't intended to be the primary source of damage. The largest SRM package has 6 missiles that deal damage equivalent to a single LL spread across the entire target. Their value is in the golden BB effect.