18 replies to this topic

[Wrajax]

Ok I'm a little new, and not a lot of experience with Mechwarrior, but compared to when I play any other mech, I feel like my Cataphract just doesn't take ANY damage to the shoulder/torso area. I get cored 3x as much on my Cataphract mechs than I do with my Catapult, Trebuchet, anything else. I know I have an XL in one of my frames and that definitely makes a difference too, but it seems like the two big shoulder assemblies that hang down should be shoulder damage, not engine damage right?

Am I crazy here? Is there a balance reason for this or ?

[themoob]

It's the XL engine. If your side torso gets taken out, you get cored. And Cataphract has huge side torsos.

[Harabeck]

I can't speak for the Trebuchet, but with the Catapult, an XL engine doesn't really matter because the the CT is so large that you'll die from that before losing a side torso 9 times out of ten. On the 'phract, the sides are larger than that, so you'll lose them more often. If you take an XL make sure to use the speed and tonnage to the fullest. Come armed to the teeth, position well and twist to protect damaged areas.

[Eumenes]

The 'phract has an Atlas-sized torso without the armor to match. If you get close to the enemy, expect to lose a torso, so XL is not worth it on a brawler. You have to play peek-a-boo, rotate torso, etc to soak up the damage.

What model of CTF are you using? I never did well in a 3D, but many use a combo of gauss and ER-PPCs to good effect from range (probably with XL Engines). My favorites are the 1X and 2X, they make for excellent brawlers, especially with a larger standard engine - 320 or so. The 4X and Ilya are good snipers.

[Wrajax]

Eumenes, on 09 March 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

The 'phract has an Atlas-sized torso without the armor to match. If you get close to the enemy, expect to lose a torso, so XL is not worth it on a brawler. You have to play peek-a-boo, rotate torso, etc to soak up the damage.

What model of CTF are you using? I never did well in a 3D, but many use a combo of gauss and ER-PPCs to good effect from range (probably with XL Engines). My favorites are the 1X and 2X, they make for excellent brawlers, especially with a larger standard engine - 320 or so. The 4X and Ilya are good snipers.

Right now my loadouts are a

4X Sniper CTF-4X - long range, usually paired with a buddy's LRM hence the TAG. I'm happy with the XL engine in this, very much a glass cannony sort of build.

3D Brawler CTF-3D - this feels like a medium on most maps, very fast - almost 80kph, JJs, and can go toe to toe with an awful lot of mechs out there. Tried this out to troll and it works great. Finally had it die to non-center damage today, and I kinda felt good about it. It's binary though, I either get 3-4 kills, or I do like 40 damage. Most of that seems to be player skill and positioning, both of which I need work on. Being quick enough means that I can torso twist and dodge in and out with decent bursts.

1X that I truly hate as PPC boat CTF-1X. Usually paired with LRMs again. Finally got it elited out and don't plan on using the battleframe anymore. But again, even with a regular engine it doesn't matter, everything hits the center from almost any range. It's infuriating.

It's not ever that my shoulders get shot up and blow my engine. I get cored in the center. 90% of the damage from pretty much any mech just plain hits that massive engine block. If I could put ALL my engine in the shoulders I would! I started out with CTFs from Day 1 as my first mech, two of the 3 started out with regular engines, and I have seen 0 difference in durability switching to XLs simply because of how easy the center gets hit. When I play other class mechs, you see the difference. You lose an arm and now your engine is exposed and you die that much quicker, or you are using a regular engine and you can run around the rest of the match just fine. I'd LOVE to lose an arm once in a while, but it just plain never happens.

Your validation that the torso is the size of an assault's and that I'm not crazy does help, I guess it's just learning counterplay and getting used to it. I'll get there eventually, or just play another mech. I truly wish that the mechlab would show the ACTUAL hit areas as they exist though!

[Wrenchfarm]

Wrajax, on 12 March 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

3D Brawler CTF-3D - this feels like a medium on most maps, very fast - almost 80kph, JJs, and can go toe to toe with an awful lot of mechs out there. Tried this out to troll and it works great. Finally had it die to non-center damage today, and I kinda felt good about it. It's binary though, I either get 3-4 kills, or I do like 40 damage. Most of that seems to be player skill and positioning, both of which I need work on. Being quick enough means that I can torso twist and dodge in and out with decent bursts.

Well there's your problem! You're brawling with an XL and a chest as big as a barn! All the ammo in the chest isn't helping either, one of those goes up and you're dead. Move the ammo to your legs and the jets to the torso, you'll instantly live longer. CASE (which you have in the wrong torso) doesn't do any good while packing an XL, you will still die to any ammo explosion in the side torso. Move the ammo to the legs, head, and if need-be, arms.

More to the point though, you're also using the LBX and MLAS. There is a lot of hate for the LBX and I don't want to get bogged down in it, but suffice to say it is a bad weapon. When you go toe to toe with someone, say with even something modest like AC5s, you look at them and think you have the bigger gun. In reality, they get to put shot after shot into specific components (say your explosive side torso) while you put 20 pellets all over their mech (and nearby rocks, walls, sky, ect). Even if all the pellets hit, your still spreading all that damage over legs and arms and all three torso components. It's no good. You'll rarely win a straight up brawl with anyone decent.

So drop the LBXs and look at the 3D.

You want to use ballistics. You want to use the jets. That means you need to mount an XL. That means you probably shouldn't be brawling.

You could try mounting a pair of UAC5s and using them to plink away at a good distance away from the fighting. Your speed and jets will help you get into good positions.

You could shave armour and lose the jets to try and fit a pair of beefy AC10s. You'll lose mobility, but gain range and precision.

Or you could go full flavour of the month and take the jets along with a Guass and 2 PPCs. Stay back hopping over obstacles putting massive spike damage into anything on the horizon.

The Phract is a good mech. You just have to build around it's problems.

[Roughneck45]

Phract just has a big and Flat torso, a very easy target.

The physical shape of the mech is taken into consideration for balance purposes usually.

For instance, the phract is large and flat because when you put an XL in it you can get a ton of firepower in there. The dragon, on the other hand, needs an XL to even be competative with its loadouts and less tonnage, so it gets a huge CT and small left and right side torsos to make it an ideal XL engine canidate. Cats are a bit of a middle ground, their side torsos hide XL engines well and they can bring more firepower than a dragon, but they get a huge head that screams "SHOOT ME!".

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 March 2013 - 01:36 PM.

[Stingz]

Roughneck45, on 12 March 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

The physical shape of the mech is taken into consideration for balance purposes usually.

For instance, the phract is large and flat because when you put an XL in it you can get a ton of firepower in there. The dragon, on the other hand, needs an XL to even be competative with its loadouts and less tonnage, so it gets a huge CT and small left and right side torsos to make it an ideal XL engine canidate. Cats are a bit of a middle ground, their side torsos hide XL engines well and they can bring more firepower than a dragon, but they get a huge head that screams "SHOOT ME!".

They are based off the TT designs, balancing isn't really taken into account.

[Roughneck45]

Stingz, on 12 March 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

They are based off the TT designs, balancing isn't really taken into account.

It is for this game. Notice how all the mechs have been redone in the new art style, shaped accordingly as I described.

the numbers are all from TT, but the art design and hitboxes are all PGI.

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 March 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[Wrenchfarm]

Stingz, on 12 March 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

They are based off the TT designs, balancing isn't really taken into account.

Roughneck45, on 12 March 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

It is for this game. Notice how all the mechs have been redone in the new art style, shaped accordingly as I described.

the numbers are all from TT, but the art design and hitboxes are all PGI.

I have to agree with Stingz. They're stuck with the basic shape and design of the mechs from the TT. They have some leeway for redesigning, like toning down the goofiness of the Trenchbucket and making the Awesome look a little more intimitading, but at the end of the day the basic shape and compositions of the mechs are not going to change much.

[ho1mes]

Careful with the XL engines -- if you prefer a sniper type of build using gauss/ppc this could work in your favor. If you like brawler type builds go with the Std engine. I also like to group my weapons for each arm that way I can shoot around obstacles. Lets you get a shot without exposing your whole torso. It helps..

[Wrajax]

Thanks for your feedback Wrenchfarm, I definitely appreciate it. I'll definitely move the JJ's and Ammo - I made those builds on the fly so things aren't exactly where they are in game, but my ammo is in a CASE if I have it on the mech. JJs in Torso does make sense.

I understand the hate for the LBX, I originally switched it out of the torso after my 1st game with the 3D for a 2xAC10. I ended up going back to it for this build though, and let me tell you why!

What I find myself doing with this mech is very much point-blank (<50m) range brawling. The exploitable advantage of this mech is that both ballistic hardpoints are on the same side, so the convergence appears to be very quick and easy to hit 20 pellets on the same very small area. The plan is to peel off armor on 1 area with the MLs as you close or on your first salvo from the back, and on the 2nd salvo do a massive amount of structural damage. The second exploitable advantage of this for this battleframe is that at point blank range, it's really hard for other mechs to converge on that incredibly fragile chest - I take a LOT more arm damage in close combat which might be technically bad but it ends up being spread around much more - I probably require 200+ damage to die rather than the ~100 total damage when my chest gets cored as usual.

I'm very much trying to build around the fragility of this mech, I'm trying Mack's 4xAutocannon build the next time I can get a chance to play!

Overall I guess as Beta feedback, I would say that the parts need to be highlighted in a much more consistent way in the mech builder so that I can be aware - headshots aren't the entire canopy even though it looks that way from the mech builder, etc. I feel like I have about a month of learning-lag on the Cataphracts really trying to dial it in because of this!

[Gandalfrockman]

Wrenchfarm, on 13 March 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

I have to agree with Stingz. They're stuck with the basic shape and design of the mechs from the TT. They have some leeway for redesigning, like toning down the goofiness of the Trenchbucket and making the Awesome look a little more intimitading, but at the end of the day the basic shape and compositions of the mechs are not going to change much.

They (The Devs) have actually discussed this before, there are deliberate adjustments to what parts of each mech count as what section for balance reasons. The collison zones do not actually match the visuals perfectly, and this is intentional, some mechs have very large obvious, easy to hit cockpits, some are deliberatley small.
Theres a reason the entire front window and surrounding frame are all headshot zone on a catapult, but on a phract you have to hit the center pane, and on an atlas its the righthand Eye socket.

[Stingz]

Gandalfrockman, on 13 March 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

They (The Devs) have actually discussed this before, there are deliberate adjustments to what parts of each mech count as what section for balance reasons. The collison zones do not actually match the visuals perfectly, and this is intentional, some mechs have very large obvious, easy to hit cockpits, some are deliberatley small.
Theres a reason the entire front window and surrounding frame are all headshot zone on a catapult, but on a phract you have to hit the center pane, and on an atlas its the righthand Eye socket.

There's still the problem is size, some battlemechs are just too big for their tonnage(Trebuchet, Centurion, Awesome).

Scale is definitely off in MWO.

[Zordicron]

Wrajax, on 13 March 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

Thanks for your feedback Wrenchfarm, I definitely appreciate it. I'll definitely move the JJ's and Ammo - I made those builds on the fly so things aren't exactly where they are in game, but my ammo is in a CASE if I have it on the mech. JJs in Torso does make sense.

I understand the hate for the LBX, I originally switched it out of the torso after my 1st game with the 3D for a 2xAC10. I ended up going back to it for this build though, and let me tell you why!

What I find myself doing with this mech is very much point-blank (<50m) range brawling. The exploitable advantage of this mech is that both ballistic hardpoints are on the same side, so the convergence appears to be very quick and easy to hit 20 pellets on the same very small area. The plan is to peel off armor on 1 area with the MLs as you close or on your first salvo from the back, and on the 2nd salvo do a massive amount of structural damage. The second exploitable advantage of this for this battleframe is that at point blank range, it's really hard for other mechs to converge on that incredibly fragile chest - I take a LOT more arm damage in close combat which might be technically bad but it ends up being spread around much more - I probably require 200+ damage to die rather than the ~100 total damage when my chest gets cored as usual.

I'm very much trying to build around the fragility of this mech, I'm trying Mack's 4xAutocannon build the next time I can get a chance to play!

Overall I guess as Beta feedback, I would say that the parts need to be highlighted in a much more consistent way in the mech builder so that I can be aware - headshots aren't the entire canopy even though it looks that way from the mech builder, etc. I feel like I have about a month of learning-lag on the Cataphracts really trying to dial it in because of this!

This is what i did on my 3D

2 ERPPC in the torso
1LBX-10 in the ARM
med laser, one in each arm
I dunno, like 270 std engine, endo, and like 15 heatsinks(dbl)

It does like 66k or something like that after tweak. PPC in the torso is excellent on phract, ERPPC means they work in close too, but at long range you can peek over a hill and actually fire them. In the arm it just shoots the dirt all the time.

I love 1 LBX. To the haters, they arent doing it right. I dont really care for 2 of them. It is a secondary weapon, I only use 1 ton ammo. ERppc from range, use the med lasers(in arms means really easy to track those pesky buggers) and use LBX as the intimidator. It works. If you are positioned right, and hit a light with full frontal lol, they run away usually. LBX hits an atlas in the arm or even side torso, it does enough knock to make them miss. It is really easy to aim with the arm mount vs torso, which means you can plaster stuff a lot easier. my lbx does not shoot rocks or whatever, it hits torsos, or faces. Only time I hit "all over" is against a trollmando or soemthing because they are so tiny.

that build is my favortie phract build. Been struggling with a good 4x build, and i agree with the 1X. I did a 2 ERPPC and 3 med laser build that does 80k and stays cool, usually, but i still eat it more then usual in it. Working on a 2x now, did a lrm/ac20/erppc combo, its sorta meh but i think it needs the efficiencys unlocked to work better, torso twist speed and range is a little lacking yet for ac20 aim, and speed tweak will get it close to 70k i think. Right now its one of those binary things, I wastem or get shamed, depends on what comes my way, or how many AMS or ECM are screwing with my LRM fire. It is nice though to LOS a foe, fire a few LRM and then when they think I am a missile boater, and charge me, start pegging them with ERPPC, and then AC20 if they try to use cover and actually get fairly close up on me.

I dont have an Illya. Probably will get one eventually, probably double gauss it. eh.

XL engine in a phract blows chunks. Dont do it. some people do OK I guess, but IMO its just asking for coring out, wasting potential fighting left in the mech when you eat it with one blown torso and only moderate dmg on the rest and 2/3 weapons left in tact.

[Zordicron]

Stingz, on 13 March 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

There's still the problem is size, some battlemechs are just too big for their tonnage(Trebuchet, Centurion, Awesome).

Scale is definitely off in MWO.

I disagree on the cent, and partly the treb- i see a lot of slowpoke trebs boating heavy weapons, so it fits the size better. But it looks goofy seeing one jamming across in a lighter speedy loadout, So i can see the point there. Cent's though, they can pack a whallop, but ususally move slower then a dragon to do it, so I have no issue with the comparable sizes.

Awesome? Oh man that thing looks like a 120 ton mech. it should be like the height of a cataphract, and about as wide as an atlas. Instead it is as tall as an atlas, and like the widest thing in the game. i love the look they got with it, but playwise it is compromised.

[Eternal Hunter]

I always get killed by CT core in my cataphract - side torsos are almost never hit.
Atleast taking an xl engine was an easy choice, heh - but damn that CT is easy to hit.

[TheCrazySteve]

Wrajax, on 12 March 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Right now my loadouts are a

4X Sniper CTF-4X - long range, usually paired with a buddy's LRM hence the TAG. I'm happy with the XL engine in this, very much a glass cannony sort of build.

There literally is no reason to run an xl engine on a dual guass cataphract. On your build the reason you have the xl is because you have spent way too much tonnage on ammo. 50-60 shots for dual guass should be all that you need. If you find yourself up close fighting, always take a shot, then turn your torso while you reload, many times in my cataphract I end the match with just one leg and a head left.

Also, another major problem with an xl dual guass build on the cataphract is that it is completly outshined by the jagermech due to the weapon height. The advantage of the cataphract over the jagermech is that you have the extra tonnage to grab a standard instead of an xl, and the hitboxes to last forever.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9505dbfbf0e46fa

I have had a ton of success in this build, feel free to move the armor and ammo around.

Edited by TheCrazySteve, 30 March 2013 - 04:07 AM.

[BGrey]

Generally if you are always getting cored then you arnt moving around enough, be it walking or torso twisting.