27 replies to this topic

[Leiska]

My brand new LRM boat Stalker-3H has the following stats:

Matches played: 19
Wins: 4
Losses: 15
W/L Ratio: 0.27
Kills: 20
Deaths: 13
K/D Ratio: 1.54
Damage done: 5,031
Average damage done: 264.8

Note that MWO stability has lately been very bad for me and probably 5 of those games I crashed at the beginning or during combat, so the stats are actually not that accurate.

Now, as you can see from the stats, even with the very weak LRMs, I'm worth more than 1.5 average mechs, yet I lose 3/4 matches.

Just a while ago I had a game where I dealt, as usual, the most damage at roughly 570, with another team mate breaking 500 and one more dealing over 170. 5/8 could not reach 100 damage and we got utterly rolled. This kind of games keep happening over and over.

So, the question then becomes, how exactly does the elo system balance games? Does it put low elo together with high elo in order to balance team total elo ratings? That's what it seems like to me, and it's not a good way to balance teams. In MWO a single highly skilled pilot cannot carry entire teams the way he might be able to in different games, so the more balanced team ends up with a very significant skill advantage.

Edited by Leiska, 29 March 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[The Cheese]

I haven't really looked too far into it, but the popular theory is that it grabs a bunch of players, averages out their scores, then finds more players for the other team whose scores average out to a similar number.

ELO was a 1v1 matchmaker originally. It's not great for team based games, but it's the best we have right now.

Anecdotal evidence, I know, but I know I've personally been in significantly fewer 1 sided stompings since the system was implemented.

On a note unrelated to the actual message, I wouldn't be bragging about getting high damage numbers when using an LRM boat. People will go out of their way to tell you how LRMs are easy mode.

Edited by The Cheese, 29 March 2013 - 02:48 PM.

[Bloody Moon]

My god, LRM boat and highly skilled in the same post.

Edit: Cheese, you've invented a time machine with that post editing?

@Leiska, your losses might have something to do with:

1. LRMs are a rather weak weapon right now damage wise, also spread out and unreliable damage.
2. LRMs could never decide a battle aside from when they were oneshotting mechs.

Edited by Bloody Moon, 29 March 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[Leiska]

Bloody Moon, on 29 March 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

My god, LRM boat and highly skilled in the same post.

LRM mechs are a lot harder to use than most other mech types. My Jager has a 2.16 K/D ratio, with only a 1.14 W/L ratio, but I didn't want to use it as an example because it's gone through many builds, some of which were unviable troll builds. Lately I've been settling on the infamous AC/40 and 2x UAC/5+lasers builds and both are significantly easier to deal lots of damage with than an LRM boat.

[Exoth3rmic]

I suspect the general consensus is X player or group hits launch, it then looks for someone with a similar Elo/MM rating and add them to the que for the match with the orginal launcher.

If none can be found within X time the MM then extends the Elo rating search to include people below and above the player and continues to adjust its search depending on who it then draws in to the que. So it can draw to give an aproximate 'average' MM for each team.

I'd also point out that you'd looking at K/D, and that says that you may be pulling your "weight" but then you are in an assault and do need to be doing so. 1.54 is quite low for my assaults, but you have a low sample of games. It also says you've died in 13 of 19 games - which is a high amount. Perhaps you are putting yourself in the way of fire too soon, perhaps your team is dieing off too early and that's out of your control. Who knows.

Edited by Exoth3rmic, 29 March 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[Roadbeer]

I swear to the MODs if I see one more Elo thread, I'm going to punch a frackin kitten.

[Sable Dove]

The LRMs are not weak; at least not large amounts of them. Only ECM prevents LRM boats from being overpowered.

The problem with ELO is that it barely attempts balance; it just rounds up 12-16 players, throws them on teams, and picks which one is likely going to win. If you PUG most of the time, ELO does nothing for you, because you can't rely on your teammates; they might be great, they might suck, but if you're consistently expected to lose, and you lose, then your ELO doesn't go down, and it just keeps putting you in games where it expects you to lose.

Really, unless you're with a team, your win/loss is entirely random, as the game doesn't really try to balance; it just predicts who will win or lose.

[Leiska]

Sable Dove, on 29 March 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

The LRMs are not weak; at least not large amounts of them. Only ECM prevents LRM boats from being overpowered.

Anything is strong in large amounts, so this argument really doesn't work because it ignores opportunity cost. Besides, I used to play with LRMs several patches ago and they were much stronger yet not FOTM.

Edited by Leiska, 29 March 2013 - 02:54 PM.

[TehSBGX]

I've thought of it a little, anyone remember how the ladder worked in Warcraft 3? It basically gave ranks, fresh people started at base rank and you worked your way up to higher ranks, all while paying people at the same rank. If they could implement something like this it might be better for the game honestly. New guys start at the bottom instead of giving them average Elo, making it new player friendly while still letting experienced players go againt people of similar skill. I'm not sure how 4 man and 8 man groups would factor into it but it might be an improvement over what we have now.

[Ghogiel]

LRMs are in nerf phase right now.

[Bloody Moon]

Leiska, on 29 March 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

LRM mechs are a lot harder to use than most other mech types. My Jager has a 2.16 K/D ratio, with only a 1.14 W/L ratio, but I didn't want to use it as an example because it's gone through many builds, some of which were unviable troll builds. Lately I've been settling on the infamous AC/40 and 2x UAC/5+lasers builds and both are significantly easier to deal lots of damage with than an LRM boat.

Actually they are a lot easier to use than almost any other weapon, but their damage was nerfed to the ground AND their hard-counter, ECM is still in the game.

We have to differentiate between hard to use and underpowered weapons. LRMs are right now the latter due to the reasons above.

[OneEyed Jack]

LRMs are underpowered, atm, period.

Maybe your losses have to do with your team having an assault hiding in back throwing spitballs, instead of bringing firepower and damage absorption to the fight. And look at those pathetic damage numbers. You're not worth 1.5 mechs, you just go for kill-shots. Stat-padding does not a good player make. An assault need to be pulling much bigger damage numbers to carry it's own weight.

[Kahoumono]

Crappy matches where you launch with mostly terrible players shows a couple things. Lots of new players, which is good...Very little experienced players, which is bad cause it shows player retention could be very low...Most likely new players like the idea of this game, gets smoked while using trial mechs, learns the only way to win is to stack weapons and become alphastrike warriors, figure out the devs are not doing much to change things in a hurry, grows tired of the same lopsided matches and quits. The core group will always stick around but obviously it isn't enought to keep the game alive as PGI constantly shifts it strategy to attract new players and money.

[Leiska]

Bloody Moon, on 29 March 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Actually they are a lot easier to use than almost any other weapon, but their damage was nerfed to the ground AND their hard-counter, ECM is still in the game.

We have to differentiate between hard to use and underpowered weapons. LRMs are right now the latter due to the reasons above.

I disagree. LRM boats have to worry about positioning much more than other mechs as they cannot handle brawls. Also, since you will lose in a direct fire exchange, you need to find ways to fire without taking return fire, yet indirect fire is extremely unreliable.

OneEyed Jack, on 29 March 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

LRMs are underpowered, atm, period.

Maybe your losses have to do with your team having an assault hiding in back throwing spitballs, instead of bringing firepower and damage absorption to the fight. And look at those pathetic damage numbers. You're not worth 1.5 mechs, you just go for kill-shots. Stat-padding does not a good player make. An assault need to be pulling much bigger damage numbers to carry it's own weight.

How do you go for kill shots with LRMs? It takes them many seconds to reach their target and you can't aim at specific locations. Besides, if you're going to argue that assaults need to pull more damage than, say, heavies, there is clearly a weight balancing issue in the game and assaults need to be nerfed. Finally, way to ignore the multiple games I do 0 damage in because the game crashes a lot.

Edited by Leiska, 29 March 2013 - 03:24 PM.

[Warren Chaos]

It's a joke. I had the day off so I finally decided to try this out.

Let me get the TLDR out of the way for the ADHD crowd. ELO is about as solid as one of my bowel movements after a weekend tequila binge. There, now go away and let the adults talk.


As a new player, your ELO is nothing more than a sick joke. I actually did my research, went to the training grounds and set up my weapons on my trial mechs before my first match. All set, drop into first match, instantly killed by someone on my own team....

Ok....

Second game was close....

Third game and everyone after that.. I'm facing custom mechs, ECM....

So, tell me again how this ELO is working?

[Greyfyl]

Warren Chaos, on 29 March 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

It's a joke. I had the day off so I finally decided to try this out.

Let me get the TLDR out of the way for the ADHD crowd. ELO is about as solid as one of my bowel movements after a weekend tequila binge. There, now go away and let the adults talk.


As a new player, your ELO is nothing more than a sick joke. I actually did my research, went to the training grounds and set up my weapons on my trial mechs before my first match. All set, drop into first match, instantly killed by someone on my own team....

Ok....

Second game was close....

Third game and everyone after that.. I'm facing custom mechs, ECM....

So, tell me again how this ELO is working?

It doesn't because my 9 year old has more common sense than PGI. The goal should be to get players of the same skill fighting with and against players of roughly the same skill level, the current setup doesn't even attempt to do that.

http://mwomercs.com/...54#entry2015654

[Warren Chaos]

Follow up, after my third game, I'm now running around fighting mechs with dual Gauss and custom paint jobs... you know, the douchbags that steam roll you in 3 min and then say GG.

PGI, you matchmaker has all the consistency of a dump I took after a weekend Tequila binge. UNFUCK yourself.

[Bloody Moon]

Leiska, on 29 March 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

I disagree. LRM boats have to worry about positioning much more than other mechs as they cannot handle brawls. Also, since you will lose in a direct fire exchange, you need to find ways to fire without taking return fire, yet indirect fire is extremely unreliable.

Positioning is just as important for every non-brawler mech as it is to LRM boats, if someone sneaks up on a poptart 3D with a dual AC/20 mech for example a Jager then the poptart will be in a world of hurt very soon. Well that is if both players are on the same skill level. The only difference is that the poptart has a chance to win while the LRM boat does not.

However this brings up the topic of which mechs can make the best use of LRMs anyway? The answer is clearly fast mediums, preferably with JJs. Simply 'cos they can outmaneuvre the most dangerous brawlers and draw back the smaller targets to the main group.

If one makes an LRM boat out of anything bigger than a Cat in the solo que while the "deadzone" mechanic exists he is doing something seriously wrong.

Edited by Bloody Moon, 29 March 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[Leiska]

This is the kind of uncarriable elo hell games I'm talking about. Notice how my match score is higher than the rest of the team's combined:

[Commander Kobold]

ELO doesn't care about you or your mech, only your W/L ratio