101 replies to this topic

[tenderloving]

MaddMaxx, on 02 April 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

When one looks back to their own side of the fence, and not over at that other, greener side, the real issue with any such change is? It will actually, at all, make better, the perceived issue.

As noted already, and rightfully so. Change whatever, but remember that those who think that Boating, or that the full Alpha, is the ONLY way, will simply carry on under the new regime.

However, those that do like certain mixes, will find times where the "new" system gimps them, and then of course, there will be those who just don't like change, after a certain point.

So where does that leave us? Right back where we are currently. This idea that some how the Dev's, or any "great new (lol) idea", is going to somehow "PLEASE" everyone, is a fantasy so large that one can only marvel to think anyone really believes it is even remotely possible at all.

When CW arrives, and those interested in playing it, will soon discover that the Alpha Boats they love in the PUG queues, won't even see the enemy long enough to fire off more than perhaps 1. When the game gets "real" then so does the need for diversity. Hopefully that time grows nearer every day.

If you have never played MechWarrior under truly organized League setup, your in for both a rude awakening (diversity does in fact rule) and a treat (diversity does make the MechWarrior game a truly FUN and unique experience)

Let's tweak and refine what we have instead of making the round wheel square again.

This was one of the most smug, nonsensical posts I have ever forced myself to read.

What the heck does "making the round wheel square again" mean? Do you mean "reinvent the wheel"?

Please explain how an alpha boat will only get off "perhaps 1" before his hypothetical self-balancing opponent with a wide array of weapons kills him. This is patently illogical. If it takes X damage to kill someone, it takes X damage to kill someone. The alphaboat is going to deliver X faster in his chosen optimal range than a more balanced mech. If you believe that "teamwork" is the reason, well the alpha-boat has a team as well. (This isn't a commentary on whether alpha boats/balanced mechs are better/worse, this is just a statement of reality.)

Also, please prepare me for my "rude awakening" with some concrete examples of League diversity. It's nice to hear about my upcoming awakening, and some examples of this would be helpful.

Back on topic:
Alpha boats will exist because there are mechs designed around the alpha strike, but this doesn't mean that EVERY mech should be capable of becoming a one shot wonder built around a single weapon system.

The core issue with the current hardpoints is that we are going to reach a point where new mechs won't be needed: They won't offer anything that another mech can't already do. We warned PGI about this in closed beta, but the Tabletop nerds who made up the majority of the population at the time screamed for unlimited customization. What we got was this ******* system that doesn't address the serious redundancy issues we're going to start seeing in the mechs. (We already see it in variants that are essentially the same.)

Thankfully, I think the community is starting to change its makeup enough that more logical heads will start to prevail. In the past a thread like this (I started a couple in Closed Beta) would get shouted down by a pack of frothing neckbeards. This thread, as an example, appears to be mostly in favor of reworking the hardpoint system.

In the future, the playerbase is going to have more and more people in it that are interested in a diverse balanced game and could give two craps about late 1970s basement-dweller rulesets. These people aren't going to spend their spacebucks on every mech that comes out "just because," and PGI would be wise to give them a reason to fork out. They have a huge opportunity to simultaneously improve the diversity of the game and secure future revenue from new mechs.

Edited by tenderloving, 02 April 2013 - 08:21 AM.

[tenderloving]

Belorion, on 02 April 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

<~ thinks we should get rid of hard points all together, and make it like TT. If it fits, you can equip it.

If you do this you might as well create 4 humanoid blobs named "light mech, medium mech, heavy mech, and assault mech"

I thought this was stupid when I was 9 years old playing Mechwarrior 2. I quickly realized that every mech was basically just a shell, and it made them generic and lame. I soon made my own "restrictions" on builds to maintain diversity and force me into certain mech choices when playing through the campaign. I was NINE YEARS OLD and I recognized that in order to make these mechs meaninfully different from one another there needs to be a thoughtful design to the capabilities of each chassis and variant.

Edited by tenderloving, 02 April 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[Belorion]

The alternative really becomes medium laser online.

[AC]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 01 April 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Good idea. PGI is too pig headed to change it though.

I do love the people advocating against it. Is 6 PPCs on a Stalker realistic within the Mechwarrior universe at all?

It isn't even realistic on the Tech 3 mechs like the Hellfire.....

[tenderloving]

Belorion, on 02 April 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

<~ thinks we should get rid of hard points all together, and make it like TT. If it fits, you can equip it.

Belorion, on 02 April 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

The alternative really becomes medium laser online.

Are you trolling? YOUR alternative becomes medium laser online. With no restrictions a go-to build would be a Catapult (or anything with small side torsos weighing more than 60 tons) with the largest possible XL engine, 10-12 medium lasers and heat sinks everywhere else.

Think the Swayback is a powerful mech? How about a hunchie with 20 medium lasers? 100 damage alphastrike to your back and it doesn't matter if he shuts down in one go or not.

[Edward Scissorhands]

THis idea is fantastic

This would allow easier manipulation of game balance

medium lasrers are op they should probably be like 4.5 dmg and 3.25 Cd

Edited by Skeddie Fallen, 02 April 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[tenderloving]

Skeddie Fallen, on 02 April 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

THis idea is fantastic

This would allow easier manipulation of game balance

medium lasrers are op they should probably be like 4.5 dmg and 3.25 Cd

You were doing good, but the wheels fell off on line 3.

[Spirit of 76]

BladeSplint, on 01 April 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

This might sound good on paper but then you will have every variant directly shoehorned into its role

This is exactly what I want. I want mechs that have actual roles. Some variability is nice, but total customization (engines? really?) is ridiculous. If I want an omnimech I'll join a clan.

The way it is now it's like all the mechs are fighting on solaris vii, which might be a fun game, but it's not warfare.

Customize your M1-A2 Abrams lately?

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Spirit of 76, on 03 April 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

This is exactly what I want. I want mechs that have actual roles. Some variability is nice, but total customization (engines? really?) is ridiculous. If I want an omnimech I'll join a clan.

The way it is now it's like all the mechs are fighting on solaris vii, which might be a fun game, but it's not warfare.

Customize your M1-A2 Abrams lately?

errr.....actually the engine size in an omnimech is fixed, along with internal structure, armor, and heatsinks; kinda one of those weird inverses. As for the customization, I don't think the player actually pays a fee for customizing either. Player buys the weapons, then just drops them into the chassis, MW2Mercs the player had to pay an additional fee for making customizations and thats what killed your budget.

[Spirit of 76]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 03 April 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

errr.....actually the engine size in an omnimech is fixed, along with internal structure, armor, and heatsinks; kinda one of those weird inverses. As for the customization, I don't think the player actually pays a fee for customizing either. Player buys the weapons, then just drops them into the chassis, MW2Mercs the player had to pay an additional fee for making customizations and thats what killed your budget.

They should just call this game Solaris VII. That would solve every objection I have. It's not warfare; it's gladiatorial combat.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Spirit of 76, on 03 April 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

They should just call this game Solaris VII. That would solve every objection I have. It's not warfare; it's gladiatorial combat.

I agree, its just standard F2P round-based faire with little depth. Just keep playing round after round...that's depth....right?

[tenderloving]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 03 April 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

errr.....actually the engine size in an omnimech is fixed, along with internal structure, armor, and heatsinks; kinda one of those weird inverses. As for the customization, I don't think the player actually pays a fee for customizing either. Player buys the weapons, then just drops them into the chassis, MW2Mercs the player had to pay an additional fee for making customizations and thats what killed your budget.

What I don't understand is that very early on PGI put in the engine rating restrictions. They came to the (correct) conclusion that 140kph hunchbacks are bad for diversity, and that a range of engine sizes for each chassis adds a lot of depth to the game.

HOWEVER, they can't seem to make the logical connection that the same applies to weapons, and that a deeper hardpoint system would create all sorts of opportunity for mechs to perform their intended roles.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

tenderloving, on 03 April 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

What I don't understand is that very early on PGI put in the engine rating restrictions. They came to the (correct) conclusion that 140kph hunchbacks are bad for diversity, and that a range of engine sizes for each chassis adds a lot of depth to the game.

HOWEVER, they can't seem to make the logical connection that the same applies to weapons, and that a deeper hardpoint system would create all sorts of opportunity for mechs to perform their intended roles.

They can't make logical leaps on a lot of things in this game.

[Nainko]

There was an so EASY thing they did in MW4.....

http://www.thatgamer.../04/MW4-SS1.jpg

Here you can see 4 Lines of Energy Weapons in an arm, a PPC used 3 lines a lage laser 2 and a medium only one....

NOW it is possible to put a AC20 in a Raven but not in an Highlander.....weird.

This would help to prevent this boating culture that rises more and more....

[MaddMaxx]

tenderloving, on 02 April 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

This was one of the most smug, nonsensical posts I have ever forced myself to read.

What the heck does "making the round wheel square again" mean? Do you mean "reinvent the wheel"?

Please explain how an alpha boat will only get off "perhaps 1" before his hypothetical self-balancing opponent with a wide array of weapons kills him. This is patently illogical. If it takes X damage to kill someone, it takes X damage to kill someone. The alphaboat is going to deliver X faster in his chosen optimal range than a more balanced mech. If you believe that "teamwork" is the reason, well the alpha-boat has a team as well. (This isn't a commentary on whether alpha boats/balanced mechs are better/worse, this is just a statement of reality.)

Also, please prepare me for my "rude awakening" with some concrete examples of League diversity. It's nice to hear about my upcoming awakening, and some examples of this would be helpful.

Back on topic:
Alpha boats will exist because there are mechs designed around the alpha strike, but this doesn't mean that EVERY mech should be capable of becoming a one shot wonder built around a single weapon system.

The core issue with the current hardpoints is that we are going to reach a point where new mechs won't be needed: They won't offer anything that another mech can't already do. We warned PGI about this in closed beta, but the Tabletop nerds who made up the majority of the population at the time screamed for unlimited customization. What we got was this ******* system that doesn't address the serious redundancy issues we're going to start seeing in the mechs. (We already see it in variants that are essentially the same.)

Thankfully, I think the community is starting to change its makeup enough that more logical heads will start to prevail. In the past a thread like this (I started a couple in Closed Beta) would get shouted down by a pack of frothing neckbeards. This thread, as an example, appears to be mostly in favor of reworking the hardpoint system.

In the future, the playerbase is going to have more and more people in it that are interested in a diverse balanced game and could give two craps about late 1970s basement-dweller rulesets. These people aren't going to spend their spacebucks on every mech that comes out "just because," and PGI would be wise to give them a reason to fork out. They have a huge opportunity to simultaneously improve the diversity of the game and secure future revenue from new mechs.

Smug? Not really. You rail about my stating more diversity will be available and then post this gem? Really?

Quote

the playerbase is going to have more and more people in it that are interested in a diverse balanced game

That is just sad really. (Holy Smokes Batman)

[Gray 46rus]

Sized hardpoints is a very good solution. I got a cognitive dissonance every time I see a commando with large laser or even ERPPC.
Nainkonami, don't hide a picture under the link. They should see it regardless of they want to do it or not.

[tenderloving]

MaddMaxx, on 03 April 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Smug? Not really. You rail about my stating more diversity will be available and then post this gem? Really?



That is just sad really. (Holy Smokes Batman)

That's all you got? You aren't going to address the points I made or answer the questions I directly asked you; you're just going to post more emotes and make another unintelligible remark. I think "smug and nonsensical" was about as accurate an assessment as I have ever made.

[Nainko]

@ Gray 46rus: Sorry i'm old ;-)

I think we, or PGI, don't have to invent a new wheel. Things that worked years before could still work today. A Catapult was never build for carring Gauss or AC20, but in this System you drop the MG and put an AC20 in.....

[XtremWarrior]

Why do people think that they will see more variety in the mechs build by placing more LIMITATIONS on it?
Building mechanics are already kinda hard to manage.
You look more like complaining about otpimisation than the building system itself. I would keep trying to make the best fighting Mech with what those limitations will give me, but guess what? someone else will try to do the same thing! And we'll both end up with very similar loadout.
And why would anyone choose to pick a Medium mech if you know you cannot mount weapon that do actually something? and, for example, Hunchback can fire from a long range with LLas these days. They won't anymore if they cannot have anything bigger than MLas. Never. That's a real issue.

[tenderloving]

XtremWarrior, on 04 April 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Why do people think that they will see more variety in the mechs build by placing more LIMITATIONS on it?
Building mechanics are already kinda hard to manage.
You look more like complaining about otpimisation than the building system itself. I would keep trying to make the best fighting Mech with what those limitations will give me, but guess what? someone else will try to do the same thing! And we'll both end up with very similar loadout.
And why would anyone choose to pick a Medium mech if you know you cannot mount weapon that do actually something? and, for example, Hunchback can fire from a long range with LLas these days. They won't anymore if they cannot have anything bigger than MLas. Never. That's a real issue.

Medium mechs are either meant to be a jack-of-all-trades mech or they are built to carry ONE weapon from a larger weight class. The hunchback is a perfect example of "intended role." It wasn't meant to be a PPC carrier or a LLas carrier; there are other medium mechs that can do that. What the hunchback CAN do that most other mediums can't is carry an AC20, or 9 small laser weapons, or an LRM20 rack. In the OP's system, the Hunchback would be the standout mech for its intended roles. In the current system, there are very few differences between the 3 mediums we have right now, and they are so interchangeable we might as well just have a "50 Ton Mech" instead of "Centurion, Hunchback, and Trebuchet."