114 replies to this topic

[FiveDigits]

Khobai, on 02 April 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

So basically... laser guided. If you have to hold a laser on the target for X duration to hit it, thats laser guidance.

You have to hold a laser on target to acquire a "lock" which, immediately, results in firing missiles that auto track just like current SSRMs.

[Khobai]

Again its a case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it". You want to complete redo the targeting for streaks.... when the fact they lock-on isn't even the problem. The problem is that they automatically hit. That's all that needs to be fixed. We don't need laser-guided Streaks, we just need Streaks that don't hit the target automatically every time you fire. Your laser-guidance doesn't fix that, because if you hold the laser on the target, they still automatically hit.

[Charles Seneca]

The problem is not that they lock on, nor is it that they automatically hit. The problem is that a lock results in an automatic hit once the fire button is pressed. The essential component that is missing is that SSRMS can miss resulting in them not firing.

This is what the OP is trying to address. His laser is not a guidance system, it is, as he said, an acquisition system intended to simulate an SSRM hit (they fire) or miss (they don't fire). If they fire they automatically hit - as they should!

I have another suggestion. Instead of the laser acquisition system, which I think is far superior to the current system, what should happen is that the "onboard computer" should calculate a hit or miss as if SRMs are being fired.

That is, once the fire button is pressed virtual SRMs are fired and calculations take place to determine whether or not they would have hit the target. This requires the player to lead the target as they would have to if they were using SRMs.

All the calculations are of course invisible to the player and take place instantly.

If SRMs would have hit, then SSRMs are fired and automatically hit. If SRMs would have missed, SSRMs do not fire and enter recycle mode.

As it is possible for some SRMs to hit while others miss, from the same volley, a hit/miss ratio would have to be calculated to determine what percentage of hits counts as an acutal "hit".

For example, it may require at least 60% of the virtual SRMs to have hit their virtual target for the computer to determine that a hit took place and SSRMs should be fired.

[focuspark]

Khobai, on 02 April 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

So basically... laser guided. If you have to hold a laser on the target for X duration to hit it, thats laser guidance.

Definitively not. Laser guidance requires the laser to directed at the target while the warhead is in flight. This is a targeting beam which is used as a gameplay mechanic to explain why you need skill to hit with a radar lock on weapon in order to keep said weapon balanced for MMO PVP FPS game play.

[zorak ramone]

This idea is perfect. Not only would it make streaks less overpowering and eliminate the impossible angles problem, it would make SSRMs behave more like they did in CBT.

Good work OP.

[Dasein]

Mypa333, on 01 April 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Did you meet a SSRM Catapult ? Because I met LRM lights, staying away from battle and getting good hits.

Lol what search youtube for streakcat, the only reason streakcat disappeared is ECM. LRM lights are pathetic and easy prey.

[Prezimonto]

I think I like this idea a lot, instead of the forever lock this forces every shot to be an independent event where you can miss while aiming, but where you don't waste missiles or heat if you miss. This would allow more than streak 2's to enter the game and not be horribly broken.

[focuspark]

Charles Seneca, on 02 April 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

I have another suggestion. Instead of the laser acquisition system, which I think is far superior to the current system, what should happen is that the "onboard computer" should calculate a hit or miss as if SRMs are being fired.

That is, once the fire button is pressed virtual SRMs are fired and calculations take place to determine whether or not they would have hit the target. This requires the player to lead the target as they would have to if they were using SRMs.

All the calculations are of course invisible to the player and take place instantly.

If SRMs would have hit, then SSRMs are fired and automatically hit. If SRMs would have missed, SSRMs do not fire and enter recycle mode.

As it is possible for some SRMs to hit while others miss, from the same volley, a hit/miss ratio would have to be calculated to determine what percentage of hits counts as an acutal "hit".

For example, it may require at least 60% of the virtual SRMs to have hit their virtual target for the computer to determine that a hit took place and SSRMs should be fired.

Actually, this is how my idea started but there's a logic flaw in it: what is to stop people from spamming the fire button until they got a lock and fire? If all you need to do is button mash, then there's no skill component. If there's a cooldown from pressing the button to counter the mashing, the feedback isn't as obvious (IMO) as the targeting laser which creates a UX problem. Lastly, this allows SSRM to be a snap shot weapon, which is the only benefit standard SRM have over SSRM - requiring the laser lock on means SSRM are for guaranteed hits and SRM are for snap shots. Very similar to the difference in behavior of lasers vs ballistics.

[Skyfaller]

Chuckie, on 01 April 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

They are not impossible angles. The ones saying that are fighting Commandos that have arms (Where our SSRMs are mounted) and a larger torso twist. So the effect can sometimes look wrong.. combined with lag... its a visual graphics thing..

Run the SSRMs in mechs like Atlas', Awesomes, etc.. they have a limited firing arc from the torso. So they are no where near as effective.

With the new profile info its easy to see if you pilot different mechs. Some mechs are built with the SSRM in mind and some are not. The Commando is effective with SSRMs like the Catapult is with LRM20s

No the problem is not the arm or torso twist. Its that the lock is not lost when the target goes out of view to either side. The lock is maintained for about 2 to 3 seconds and the SSRMs end up being fired at extreme angles.

For example, a Raven in a circle fight with a much nimbler spider. Spider will turn inside the raven. Raven's cockpit is twisted max to one side...the spider puts a speed burst and gets BEHIND the raven's torso.

..but the raven acquired a lock before the spider did this.

2 seconds after the spider got behind the raven's torso the raven fires an SSRM volley...BACKWARDS. Right before it loses the lock.

You can do it in any mech but it is exploitable only in light mechs since they alone keep twisting and turning so much that targets get out of cockpit view for a couple of seconds at a time.

In a stalker for example... you acquire SSRM lock on a commando thats running towards you. Fire one volley, the commando is now running circles around your legs. Guess what? the commando will remain locked for a few seconds after it zooms behind the stalker.

stalker fires ssrm. SSRM volley flies 150 degrees to either side to hit the circling commando. Commando sees the rear shoulder area of the stalker just vomit SSRMs at him. A WTF moment.


SSRMs should have two simple rules:

The instant the aimpoint leaves the lockbox the lock is broken.
If ECM is active on disrupt mode the mech with the ECM cannot lock missiles onto others.

Easy fix to two very serious exploits.

[focuspark]

Skyfaller, on 02 April 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

...

Perfect description of the problem and I think my solution solves this problem because the launcher has to have its laser pointed at the target at the time the missiles are fired. That guarantees the target is in front of the launcher tube at the time of launch, removing all of the "WTF?!" missiles flying sideways through geometry moments.

[MustrumRidcully]

Khobai, on 02 April 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

SRMs shouldnt be dumbfire either. They should be lock-on weapons.

The only difference between SRMs and Streaks is Streaks dont roll on the cluster table and streaks dont waste ammo or hea when they miss.

The challenge is modelling this in a real time game. You can't fire off the missile and have it fly back to the launcher and have it lower your heat.
We also can't have it a 100 % hit chance with the same refire rate as SRMs.

focusparks approach has the advantage that it adds skill requirements to the Streaks. Streaks don't grant a to-hit bonus, they don't replace the pilot's gunnery skill. So making it as hard to fire Streaks as it is firing a laser seems appropriate.

An alternative approach would be for the devs to take the average hit probability people have with SRMs, and adjust the SSRM cooldown by that. So, if people hit with 50 % of their SRMs, have Streaks fire twice as slow as SRMs. The net effect is - Streaks hit their target as often as SRMs in the same time frame, but SRMs waste more money. No big skill component to SSRMs in this model, but they are more balanced against SRMs. The advantage of Streaks would really be less heat and ammo consumption.

[focuspark]

MustrumRidcully, on 02 April 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

An alternative approach would be for the devs to take the average hit probability people have with SRMs, and adjust the SSRM cooldown by that. So, if people hit with 50 % of their SRMs, have Streaks fire twice as slow as SRMs. The net effect is - Streaks hit their target as often as SRMs in the same time frame, but SRMs waste more money. No big skill component to SSRMs in this model, but they are more balanced against SRMs. The advantage of Streaks would really be less heat and ammo consumption.

The problem here is who do you measure? The newb who can't hit the broad side of barn or the veteran with a 75% hit rate? Also, not all SRM missiles hit with every launch, how would this factor in? What about range issues, ect. The problem gets vast quick with a solution like this - and while it would probably work on paper over averages, I feel it would unjustly punish good players and reward bad ones.

Balance needs to be global and individual as much as possible, while remaining fun. It's a hard thing to accomplish.

[MustrumRidcully]

focuspark, on 02 April 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

The problem here is who do you measure? The newb who can't hit the broad side of barn or the veteran with a 75% hit rate? Also, not all SRM missiles hit with every launch, how would this factor in?

The current stats account for this. They count individual missiles. (I believe this doesn't happen for LBX, however)

Quote

What about range issues, ect. The problem gets vast quick with a solution like this - and while it would probably work on paper over averages, I feel it would unjustly punish good players and reward bad ones.

Balance needs to be global and individual as much as possible, while remaining fun. It's a hard thing to accomplish.

I prefer your laser-acquisiton method, but if we can't have that, I'll take the reduced ROF version with some "reasonably defined average": If necessary, they can adjust it to the average (or median?) SRM hit rate of the current server population on each update.

[blinkin]

focuspark, on 02 April 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

The problem here is who do you measure? The newb who can't hit the broad side of barn or the veteran with a 75% hit rate? Also, not all SRM missiles hit with every launch, how would this factor in? What about range issues, ect. The problem gets vast quick with a solution like this - and while it would probably work on paper over averages, I feel it would unjustly punish good players and reward bad ones.

Balance needs to be global and individual as much as possible, while remaining fun. It's a hard thing to accomplish.

i choose to brutally punish everyone with my rebalance designs. keeps everything fair.

[needforsleep]

guess i'll be trading in my JR7-D for a commando if the laserthing becomes a reality, or i'll get the living **** kicked out of me by every other light i come across.

[blinkin]

needforsleep, on 02 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

guess i'll be trading in my JR7-D for a commando if the laserthing becomes a reality, or i'll get the living **** kicked out of me by every other light i come across.

wut? how is this suggestion any worse than the auto hit within 270m that we have now? this sort of thing puts streaks more on par with lasers.

[focuspark]

blinkin, on 02 April 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

wut? how is this suggestion any worse than the auto hit within 270m that we have now? this sort of thing puts streaks more on par with lasers.

It's not.. he's just grump because he needs sleep

[focuspark]

Only 28 votes? Nobody else cares about fixing streaks (for or against)?

[focuspark]

bump

[Macheiron]

Clearly SSRMs need a separate lock mechanic from LRMs. However, I can't sign off on a laser designator as that's Artemis VI or TAG. With that in mind, what about a multi-lock system similar to what's used in Armored Core?

What I am proposing is a system that allows for each Missile to lock, and have an indicator on the hud. Thus you can fire as many or as few of your SSRMs as you need to. Naturally there would need to be a pretty fast lock-decay, with a short delay before it takes effect (maybe 1/4 second). This would also mean that every launcher you have in the group would attempt to fire, and any missiles not locked would not fire and the launchers would all recycle. At this point, locks must be reacquired, rinse, repeat.

Quote

The only disadvantages are that Streak launchers are incompatible with other missile target acquisition technologies such as the Artemis IV FCS and Narc Missile Beacon...

Technically TAG and Narc should have no effect on Streaks, so perhaps this system i've proposed could work out.

Edited by Macheiron, 05 April 2013 - 11:05 AM.