114 replies to this topic

[General Taskeen]

Nihtgenga, on 18 April 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

On a second thought: Thinking about how a Multi-SSRM6 clan build would wipe the floor with any IS enemy in range, if the current SSRM concept is not changed, I do really not think, that the SSRM-logic would be considerable as "working as intended".

A stock Madcat variant includes 4 SSRM6.

And you are correct. And as I, and others have predicted, it will be a problem, as will all UAC's with "double shot."

[Nihtgenga]

Whew, according to Ask the devs 36, we're likely to see soon the TimberWolf "D" you refer to, as they are working on clantech now. And probably even Streak LRMs, which will make playing IS as fun as getting an hedgehog shoved up your rear - against the direction of its quills.

[Critical Fumble]

General Taskeen, on 18 April 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

A stock Madcat variant includes 4 SSRM6.

And you are correct. And as I, and others have predicted, it will be a problem, as will all UAC's with "double shot."

Even the inferior IS versions would be a nightmare. There's no offset for range except at the outer edge, and the only defense is having an active ECM or being behind something.

[Cyke]

I'm convinced that aside from the actual system used for attaining a lock before you pull the trigger that we're still discussing, Streak missile systems must have the penalty of going into their recycle cooldown if you attempt to fire without a lock.

This is the only way to balance the larger Streak SRM packs, especially the SSRM-6.


Otherwise we will one day see salvos of 36 sure-hit Streak SRMs with no "miss" penalty. That sort of offensive capability will make the SplatCats of old seem like docile and myopic domestic tabbies in comparison..

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 02 April 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

So basically... laser guided. If you have to hold a laser on the target for X duration to hit it, thats laser guidance.

T.A.G. laser!

[Zyllos]

Macheiron, on 05 April 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Clearly SSRMs need a separate lock mechanic from LRMs. However, I can't sign off on a laser designator as that's Artemis VI or TAG. With that in mind, what about a multi-lock system similar to what's used in Armored Core?

What I am proposing is a system that allows for each Missile to lock, and have an indicator on the hud. Thus you can fire as many or as few of your SSRMs as you need to. Naturally there would need to be a pretty fast lock-decay, with a short delay before it takes effect (maybe 1/4 second). This would also mean that every launcher you have in the group would attempt to fire, and any missiles not locked would not fire and the launchers would all recycle. At this point, locks must be reacquired, rinse, repeat.

Technically TAG and Narc should have no effect on Streaks, so perhaps this system i've proposed could work out.

This is something I proposed a while ago for SSRMs.

Still think this is the best solution. It would not take much to seperate the locking mechanics of LRMs from SSRMs. You essentially reuse the LRM code, except reduce the range to 270m, add a new graphic to designate the SSRMs (I would suggest an X that closes into the center and produces a new sound), up the cooldown and requires a new lockon for each launcher.

All the above changes should make the overall DPS of SSRMs be 75% to 50% the overall DPS of SRMs, assuming 100% of SRMs and SSRMs are hitting the target. The trade off of SSRMs over SRMs is high accuracy for lower DPS.

Edited by Zyllos, 01 May 2013 - 05:56 AM.

[Critical Fumble]

Cyke, on 01 May 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

I'm convinced that aside from the actual system used for attaining a lock before you pull the trigger that we're still discussing, Streak missile systems must have the penalty of going into their recycle cooldown if you attempt to fire without a lock.

This is the only way to balance the larger Streak SRM packs, especially the SSRM-6.


Otherwise we will one day see salvos of 36 sure-hit Streak SRMs with no "miss" penalty. That sort of offensive capability will make the SplatCats of old seem like docile and myopic domestic tabbies in comparison..

I think the idea in the OP is that the locking beam stays active until you either get a lock or after two seconds have passed. If you fire you go through the reload cycle, if you fail to lock you can fire again after the duration is up.

I'm not sure if that would be an issue or not. It seems more or less fair, because spamming would be less effective than firing when you had a target by virtue of how the lock-on mechanic works (gain lock in two seconds or try again). It would take about half the time of a reload to fail a shot and then potentially hit. It could be a problem, and then the full cooldown penalty wouldn't be a horrible burden given how painful a blast of those would be.

[Mister Blastman]

HarmAssassin, on 01 April 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

How to "fix" streaks:

1. Have them hit randomly (all but head).
2. Don't allow streaks on mechs that equip an ECM.

What'd be neat is forcing a mech using ECM to turn off their ECM if they want to fire the streaks. Otherwise, they fire like dumbfire srms.

[General Taskeen]

Then what would be the point of adding AECM later on? That's exactly what AECM does to SSRM's, they can be dumb-fired only if in the AECM 'shroud.' However, regular ECM never affected any missile system.

If PGI can't make the proper distinction between equipment as it is, then everything just falls flat. Hence, the current balance problems with a lot of things.

[Critical Fumble]

With the coming "BAP buff"/"ECM nerf" I think this is going to be relevant again very soon.

[One Medic Army]

Critical Fumble, on 02 May 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

With the coming "BAP buff"/"ECM nerf" I think this is going to be relevant again very soon.

Yup, both of which are also concurrent with the new missile numbers.

[Sephlock]

No. SSRMs should be re-buffed to be exactly as they were. They should remain the primo flyswatter.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I've always wanted them to be akin to TOW missiles and have a set amount of fuel. They have a range of 270 meters due to fuel constraints I'm assuming, so their flight time is 1.35 seconds.

Half the problem with Streaks is their 100% hit. Which means they spend a lot of time orbiting mechs. If they self detonated after 1.35 seconds of flight, the majority of the orbiting problem would be solved.

The other problem is the lock-on fire-and-forget, which I don't really view as a problem, could be solved by making the streaks into TOW styled wire-guided/laser guided missiles. Which this could also solve the streakcat problems due to be seen again and the current implementation of light on light warfare where the ECM light has the advantage.

[El Bandito]

focuspark, on 01 April 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

When discussing Streak Short Range Missiles [SSRM], it seems that all balance questions / arguments come down to the lock on mechanic used. It gives an incidental bonus to mechs capable of equipping ECM and causes the "impossible" attack angles seen with the current version of SSRM (because the can't miss and lock on can be held at any angle).

Therefore, SSRM should drop the lock on mechanic. Instead, when the trigger is pulled SSRM should emit a 270m long targeting beam for up to 2.0 seconds. If the beam can be kept on target for 0.5 seconds continually, or 1.0 seconds cumulatively the missiles fire and work as they do now. If not, the missiles do not fire, ammo is not consumed, heat is not wasted.

It's a simple, easy to understand model. Launchers is separate body locations would lock on independently and rely on convergence like nearly every other weapon system, giving reasons to place SSRM in arms. Pilots could not lock on before being in range or preserve their lock on between launches. Finally, because SSRM would behave like lasers when attempting to lock on, they would require skill and missiles would launch directly at the target and not require fancy trajectory manipulation to make them strike their targets.

Of course, using this new model ECM should no longer affect SSRM there by removing the special case benefit ECM enabled light mechs have over non-ECM enabled versions.

Finally - assuming this change was made, damage and heat values would need to be looked at for additional balancing; but that should go without saying for all weapon systems all the time.

I am generally ok with this idea--as a Streakcat user. However, there is one thing I would like to change. The requirement for the beam to be kept on target for 0.5 seconds continually, or 1.0 seconds cumulatively to fire the missiles should be removed.
Instead the missiles should fire as soon as I get the laser beam on the target--and as long as I keep the enemy targeted with that laser--which can be hard considering the fact many of my targets move between buildings at 140 kph.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 May 2013 - 07:53 PM.

[Keifomofutu]

I think one little change that would balance them out a bit would be to force the lockon mechanic to use the torso reticule and not the arm reticle as it does currently. This would eliminate the habit of jj mechs flying over your head with their arms pointed down bombing you with SSRMs. It would also make it harder to lock on to light mechs with a heavier one. The lockon mechanic right now is just far too forgiving.

If you wanted to be really mean force someone to keep the reticule over the target mech the whole time the streaks are in flight or they simply stop tracking if you lose lock.

[Critical Fumble]

El Bandito, on 02 May 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

I am generally ok with this idea--as a Streakcat user. However, there is one thing I would like to change. The requirement for the beam to be kept on target for 0.5 seconds continually, or 1.0 seconds cumulatively to fire the missiles should be removed.
Instead the missiles should fire as soon as I get the laser beam on the target--and as long as I keep the enemy targeted with that laser--which can be hard considering the fact many of my targets move between buildings at 140 kph.

The idea is that if you manage to get the SSRMs locked they auto-hit. Your version sounds like it allows for ammo and heat to be lost if you lose LOS on the target mid-shot. The idea is that it isn't easier or harder than an SRM launcher, but that its more efficient.

If it helps you understand the beam concept, an earlier version of the idea was that the beam builds a percentile lock-on at a set rate while a target is under it (100%in 0.5 seconds in this case) but the partial lock degrades if they evade targeting.

[El Bandito]

Critical Fumble, on 02 May 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

The idea is that if you manage to get the SSRMs locked they auto-hit. Your version sounds like it allows for ammo and heat to be lost if you lose LOS on the target mid-shot. The idea is that it isn't easier or harder than an SRM launcher, but that its more efficient.

If it helps you understand the beam concept, an earlier version of the idea was that the beam builds a percentile lock-on at a set rate while a target is under it (100%in 0.5 seconds in this case) but the partial lock degrades if they evade targeting.

Sounds cool.

Really wish SSRMs can dumb fire if I choose to, though.

[General Taskeen]

Keifomofutu, on 02 May 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

I think one little change that would balance them out a bit would be to force the lockon mechanic to use the torso reticule and not the arm reticle as it does currently. This would eliminate the habit of jj mechs flying over your head with their arms pointed down bombing you with SSRMs. It would also make it harder to lock on to light mechs with a heavier one. The lockon mechanic right now is just far too forgiving.

If you wanted to be really mean force someone to keep the reticule over the target mech the whole time the streaks are in flight or they simply stop tracking if you lose lock.

I'll one up this idea. Where-ever the missile is mounted, an arm with motion or if it is in the torso, the "aim" cursor associated with it should have to be kept on target. I think many people are basically saying the same thing.

[Fate 6]

I just have to point out how hard it is to actually get a lock on lights right now with SSRMs for anyone that isn't running at 30+ frames. SSRMs are almost unplayable for me in my Cent because it's just too hard to actually get a lock on a light mech. I could abuse the Artemis lock-on enhance which actually works for streaks, but against an ECMed mech or even just a fast small mech on hilly terrain it's a nightmare.

[focuspark]

El Bandito, on 02 May 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

Sounds cool.

Really wish SSRMs can dumb fire if I choose to, though.

That's the intended trade off of SSRM vs SRM. One can only dumb fire, the other can never dumb fire.