20 replies to this topic

[borisof007]

Hello everyone!

I watched and listened to Bryan's interview this morning at GDC with MMO Attack (reference thread here: http://mwomercs.com/...ygon-interview/). Based on the information that I heard, I have a GREAT amount of faith in PGI and their ability to grow this game into something phenomenal.

My reasoning doesn't come from the features they've listed, it comes from the comment made by Bryan about expanding the team by 100% from 50 employees to 100, and moving them into a larger office to accommodate the growth.

A little about myself, I'm an IT Recruiter for some of the largest tech companies in the world here in the Silicon Valley. I recruit Engineers all day, it's what I've done for 5 years, and I used to be a Network Engineer myself.

Based on Bryan's comments about expanding the team by 50 employees, and based on an average base salary of $80-$100k in Canada for employees between graphics design and art design, game development, creative directors, network engineering, systems administration, database administration, and more, PLUS the cost of benefits, you get an average cost per employee of about $100k+.

Take $100k, multiply that by 50, and that's a cool 5 million dollars just in employee cost, not to mention the additional cost for equipment, logistics, space, energy, and more.

For them to spend an ADDITIONAL $5 million on employees, plus the amount they already spend, means that they have to feel real comfortable expanding the team and growing to the level they want without taking on too much debt. They have to feel very comfortable in their income stream and it's projected growth.

Based on that single statement, and my absolutely crazy and "educated guess" based analysis, I feel very confident that this game will at least be around for another 2-3 years with no problem.

[Chavette]

They have a publisher, meaning they have the comfort of getting money, growing a team before they could afford it from sales.
With the investors seeing that they were already close to getting enuff to pay for themselves, they could easily convince them to help them double their team.

[Ozric]

$80k to $100k per salary? That's £50k to £80k in my money, does the game industry really pay that well?

[Pando]

borisof007, on 01 April 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Hello everyone!

I watched and listened to Bryan's interview this morning at GDC with MMO Attack (reference thread here: http://mwomercs.com/...ygon-interview/). Based on the information that I heard, I have a GREAT amount of faith in PGI and their ability to grow this game into something phenomenal.

My reasoning doesn't come from the features they've listed, it comes from the comment made by Bryan about expanding the team by 100% from 50 employees to 100, and moving them into a larger office to accommodate the growth.

A little about myself, I'm an IT Recruiter for some of the largest tech companies in the world here in the Silicon Valley. I recruit Engineers all day, it's what I've done for 5 years, and I used to be a Network Engineer myself.

Based on Bryan's comments about expanding the team by 50 employees, and based on an average base salary of $80-$100k in Canada for employees between graphics design and art design, game development, creative directors, network engineering, systems administration, database administration, and more, PLUS the cost of benefits, you get an average cost per employee of about $100k+.

Take $100k, multiply that by 50, and that's a cool 5 million dollars just in employee cost, not to mention the additional cost for equipment, logistics, space, energy, and more.

For them to spend an ADDITIONAL $5 million on employees, plus the amount they already spend, means that they have to feel real comfortable expanding the team and growing to the level they want without taking on too much debt. They have to feel very comfortable in their income stream and it's projected growth.

Based on that single statement, and my absolutely crazy and "educated guess" based analysis, I feel very confident that this game will at least be around for another 2-3 years with no problem.

Hey, what about all the people that claim PGI/IGP are bankrupt?

I took from that interview the same message you did. It's going to be a big year for us, that is for sure!

[borisof007]

Ozric, on 01 April 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

$80k to $100k per salary? That's £50k to £80k in my money, does the game industry really pay that well?

Systems Administrators, Database Engineers, and Network Engineers earn good money anywhere, regardless of the game industry or not.

Edit: I'd like to add that this is lowered by about 30% from the Silicon Valley, which pays higher than anywhere else in the world.

Edited by borisof007, 01 April 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[Alois Hammer]

Ozric, on 01 April 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

$80k to $100k per salary? That's £50k to £80k in my money, does the game industry really pay that well?

Apparently it does if you can P.T. Barnum enough people into paying for Founder's before going "Y'all got Punk'd!"

[jay35]

Am I recalling incorrectly or did he say something in the interview like "working on MWO and other things"? Not clear the new staff will be dedicated entirely to MWO.

[Purplefluffybunny]

borisof007, on 01 April 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

For them to spend an ADDITIONAL $5 million on employees, plus the amount they already spend, means that they have to feel real comfortable expanding the team and growing to the level they want without taking on too much debt. They have to feel very comfortable in their income stream and it's projected growth.

Based on that single statement, and my absolutely crazy and "educated guess" based analysis, I feel very confident that this game will at least be around for another 2-3 years with no problem.

Or, as an end user, I can perhaps think "OMG, all those costs will be past onto me!". Personally, I always thought game designers over valued their work and what it is they produce (which is essentially nothing in the real sense), but I guess that is just me Thing is, I imagine that MWO is not the only mechwarrior project they will have on the go.

EDIT: My fear is they will grow too fast. What I hear about the costs per mech and per map makes me wonder.

Edited by Purplefluffybunny, 01 April 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[Oinkage]

@ PurpleFluffyBunny

Game designers are a special breed of systems analyst and systems architect, but deal with many of the same challenges that an architect of any distributed system would need to overcome. Your premise that because they work in the game industry they should be valued less than someone architecting a solution for the financial or medical industry is not only wrong, but completely incorrect. Someone in the gaming industry can in fact be paid a lot more and gain quite a lot of recognition from their ingenious use of code for networking, AI, or user interface design.

Let me just introduce 4 names to you from the original Atari 2600 developer team along with what they went on to achieve.

Bob Whitehead
Allan Miller
David Crane
Larry Kaplan

They formed Activision. There are many other programmers and game designers that have gone on to do great things and have been actively recruited by publishers because gamers know that when a good designer is part of a development process, the game will be worth playing. For many years, the press release of the lead designer/programmer for a game has been part of getting the gamers energized and ready for a game. Names like Sid Meier, are part of the brand in many cases. This is why game designers are not any cheaper than conventional architects, designers, and programmers. Serious gamers know that the heart and soul of a game's playability and longevity is directly linked to the minds that created it. Quality costs money.

Edited by Oinkage, 01 April 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[DaZur]

Average graphic design and 3D design conscript outside silicone valley is roughly 40 to 60 for grunt work and upwards of 80 for project directors and lead designers... give or take.

As an Operational Manger, I can vouch that incurred salary is only part of the operational cost of bringing a new employee on board... Benefits, Insurance, office assets and operational expenses by those processing their induction not even mentioning the lag in productivity before these new employees are up to speed and fully carrying their weight.

For any company bringing that many new employees on board... it's definitely no small matter.

Edited by DaZur, 01 April 2013 - 09:51 AM.

[borisof007]

DaZur, on 01 April 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Average graphic design and 3D design conscript outside silicone valley is roughly 40 to 60 for grunt work and upwards of 80 for project directors and lead designers... give or take.

As an Operational Manger, I can vouch that incurred salary is only part of the operational cost of bringing a new employee on board... Benefits, Insurance, office assets and operational expenses by those processing their induction not even mentioning the lag in productivity before these new employees are up to speed and fully carrying their weight.

For any company bringing that many new employees on board... it's definitely no small matter.

Yep, which is why for them to be expanding as aggressively as they are, it gives me good faith that their income stream and projected growth is strong enough for them to sustain.

This game isn't going anywhere but up folks.

[Purplefluffybunny]

Oinkage, on 01 April 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

@ PurpleFluffyBunny

Game designers are a special breed of systems analyst and systems architect, but deal with many of the same challenges that an architect of any distributed system would need to overcome. Your premise that because they work in the game industry they should be valued less than someone architecting a solution for the financial or medical industry is not only wrong, but completely incorrect. Someone in the gaming industry can in fact be paid a lot more and gain quite a lot of recognition from their ingenious use of code for networking, AI, or user interface design.

Let me just introduce 4 names to you from the original Atari 2600 developer team along with what they went on to achieve.

Bob Whitehead
Allan Miller
David Crane
Larry Kaplan

They formed Activision. There are many other programmers and game designers that have gone on to do great things and have been actively recruited by publishers because gamers know that when a good designer is part of a development process, the game will be worth playing. For many years, the press release of the lead designer/programmer for a game has been part of getting the gamers energized and ready for a game. Names like Sid Meier, are part of the brand in many cases. This is why game designers are not any cheaper than conventional architects, designers, and programmers. Serious gamers know that the heart and soul of a game's playability and longevity is directly linked to the minds that created it. Quality costs money.

I don't deny the how much hard work and skill is required. I don't deny that there are no other uses for code and concepts. I merely question the value of game designers and video games in societies such as ours.

EDIT: BTW, obviously when i say game designers I am talking about like, when they design games, not other things!

EDIT2: Yes I view medical engineers to be of greater worth.

Edited by Purplefluffybunny, 01 April 2013 - 09:56 AM.

[Shumabot]

Ozric, on 01 April 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

$80k to $100k per salary? That's £50k to £80k in my money, does the game industry really pay that well?

Only for senior talent. The payscale varies wildly, with experienced back and or engine coders getting above 100k at times while art asset development or QA going far below that. It's not an industry with very many worker protections, so payscales range from exploitative to lavish.

[Zerberus]

Ozric, on 01 April 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

$80k to $100k per salary? That's £50k to £80k in my money, does the game industry really pay that well?

That`s actually pretty standard for most vocations that require universitly level skills. Sure, there are people that don`t go to school and still do well in these fields due to innate talent, just as with everything that is more an art than a science.

But for the most part, these are the dame "nerds" and "geeks" that everybody in highschool bullied and made jokes about for trying to get good grades. They took those grades, went to a good school for 4 years, and now have the skills to pay the bills while the jocks broke their leg and lost everything in that bar fight after homecoming.

[PropagandaWar]

borisof007, on 01 April 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

Systems Administrators, Database Engineers, and Network Engineers earn good money anywhere, regardless of the game industry or not.

Edit: I'd like to add that this is lowered by about 30% from the Silicon Valley, which pays higher than anywhere else in the world.

Whats funny is I was on there hiring page over a week ago, and proceeded to debate with a person on why they would be hiring for so many positions if they are failing. PGI will setout to make money that is for sure. But these guys are gonna be flexable because the game unlike most is designed around being dynamic.

[Shumabot]

Zerberus, on 01 April 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

That`s actually pretty standard for most vocations that require universitly level skills. Sure, there are people that don`t go to school and still do well in these fields due to innate talent, just as with everything that is more an art than a science.

But for the most part, these are the dame "nerds" and "geeks" that everybody in highschool bullied and made jokes about for trying to get good grades. They took those grades, went to a good school for 4 years, and now have the skills to pay the bills while the jocks broke their leg and lost everything in that bar fight after homecoming.

80-100k is certainly not standard for degreed work. It's common in high end engineering, medical, bio, or financial fields, but those are a fractional number of total degrees annually.

[borisof007]

Trying to bring this back on topic, which is that PGI isn't failing. They're actually succeeding quite well in order to be hiring this many folks, even if I was wrong on the salaries by 20%, that's still a 4 million investment just in pay, which is a LOT.

[Zyllos]

Those numbers are really surprising. I am paid significantly less but working as a Software Engineer for a Raytheon radar system for the government. Of course, it's my first job right out of college so that is to be expected. And the amount I am paid I am happy with so...

Edited by Zyllos, 01 April 2013 - 10:30 AM.

[borisof007]

Zyllos, on 01 April 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Those numbers are really surprising. I am paid significantly less but working as a Software Engineer for a Raytheon radar system for the government. Of course, it's my first job right out of college so that is to be expected. And the amount I am paid I am happy with so...

Fresh college grads are usually worried more about gaining the right experience within the right environment. Won't be until your 3+ year mark of professional experience where you'll start to see that cash monies. : )

[Shumabot]

Zyllos, on 01 April 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Those numbers are really surprising. I am paid significantly less but working as a Software Engineer for a Raytheon radar system for the government. Of course, it's my first job right out of college so that is to be expected. And the amount I am paid I am happy with so...

I have a friend who started 70k for BAE, maybe Raetheon is just under average?