101 replies to this topic

[darkfall13]

MischiefSC, on 05 April 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

As someone who's submitted support tickets and bug reports in the appropriate forum I'd say we're part of a beta. Just that PGI, in having it an open beta, is pretty gentle in what it expects back from people. Not to mention that since almost everything happens server side they get thousands and thousands of test examples for balancing purposes and as they roll out 12v12 and CW will continue to get tons and tons of test data regardless of what people submit.

This is exactly what an open beta is. A closed beta is a smaller group of people who work more directly with the developers, open beta more about testing an experience closer to what the RC will look like.

I like how you solely went to support tickets and bug reporting (which is available and encouraged even at release so that doesn't help your case and I didn't use it in my reply). Most every game happens server side nowadays, especially f2p games. And even if it didn't, devs would gather data from their servers for what they can, even after launch, so again that doesn't help your case.

How about we look at the situation in a different light? We've been in Open Beta for what? About 5 months? As has already been stated to the media (not the forums, because we're not beta testers apparently) the latest we'll be launching is Sept 21, which would be another 5 months from now. Looking back 5 months we have:

• Some more mechs
  
• Some more maps (I'm not belittling the effort and manpower required to make either, merely stating as fact)
  
• Bug fixes
  
• Various tweaks
  
• The "Information Warfare Pillar" (ie just ECM, count TAG and the PPC scramble if you want)
  
• MC content (which again, I have no problem with and I didn't list it as a point of contention)

That's about it, looking forward 5 months:

• The rest of the pillars, considering this is core content whether your definition is just

  Quote

  big stompy mech combat
  
  
• Rest of the mechs? Let alone announcing more? (We can all agree not needed for launch, but on the other side of the coin you could have said that about all the other mechs they have added since CB)
  
• More maps? (Again not needed but it's on the plate)
  
• Community Warfare (If they want to make some sort of epic feature or take the cheap way out and do WoT stuff has yet to be seen, but considering their high aspirations on all content I hope for the best)
  
• Tutorial (Again not needed for launch, but you're sure in the hell going to make this easy on all the fresh recruits by not including it, especially considering today alone in my play time how many people had to be coached in game how to even move their stompy robot, let alone be helpful)
  
• More bug fixes (Because this happens even outside of beta)
  
• More tweaks (This is "beta" after all)
  
• Of course more MC content
  
• That pesky little thing that happens in 3050 might need to be looked at by then which has a whole lot tied to it
  
• And I'm sure more that I'm forgetting

Seems like a pretty full plate, yes I know people learn, they get better at doing their thing and therefore faster, but since we do actually have a time frame to go off of, makes it kind of hard to ignore how much is left. Let alone whatever PGI decides is the minimum required for launch it still needs to be in-game for some time to be "tested" by us, the "beta testers." So now is that definition of Alpha looking?

Edited by darkfall13, 06 April 2013 - 12:22 AM.

[Aim-Bot]

I just think only serious feedback sould be posted in the forums. No raging,flaming or any hate.
If you like MWO so far but you think its unplayable then make an account and leave to elsewhere till alfa release and come back then.
If you think MWO has potential then just buy some MC to support progress and see if there is anything to buy later.
The third option is to play the game and support PGI with feedback and money.

Whats not an option?
Buying MC and thinking you can dictade PGI how they have to create their game or start raging at PGI as soon as they do a mistake and tell us that you gonna leave the game and you want your money back.

Edited by KuritaGuard, 06 April 2013 - 04:27 AM.

[Ice Viper]

i really dont care if its beta, gamma, delta or zeta. aside from spending 50 bucks and having the rainbow polygon explosion after the last patch i'm having a blast playing this game. i've played the 360, and a few other mechwarrior games and this is still pretty fun. it'll get better as we go along

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

KuritaGuard, on 06 April 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

If you think MWO has potential then just buy some MC to support progress and see if there is anything to buy later.
The third option is to play the game and support PGI with feedback and money.

or maybe buy a founders tag? I see you dont have one, with that interesting opinion youre spouting there of how we should leave if we dont like the way things are.

[Aim-Bot]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 06 April 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

or maybe buy a founders tag? I see you dont have one, with that interesting opinion youre spouting there of how we should leave if we dont like the way things are.

Yes i say leave and come back to alfa release or help the comunity and PGI to improve. Thats pretty simple and oh sorry that i dont have a tag for spending 250 usd.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

KuritaGuard, on 06 April 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Yes i say leave and come back to alfa release or help the comunity and PGI to improve. Thats pretty simple and oh sorry that i dont have a tag for spending 250 usd.

well its funny youre telling those of us who already HAVE supported the game to leave if we dont like it you you have no tag yourself.

I like the concept of this being a "beta" where we give "feedback" and find bugs to report them
and when we are unhappy with the sudden direction change they take we let tem know this rather than "leave and come back when its released"

That argument gives credence to the idea that you dont think this is a beta if you dont want us to be beta testers and want us to leave instead, and just because we dont agree with you.

[Greyfyl]

If only someone had explained what beta meant in a forum post before.

[Aim-Bot]

This is not a discussion about if its beta or not.
Someone said that this topic could get ugly at any point we probably reached that point.
I dont care if youre founder or not.
This is dedicated to crybabys,flamers and hater and raging ofc.
Yes its the first mechwarrior game after 10 years and we all have high hopes and expecting alot.
Stop expecting because thats the main issue.Why do you think PGI stopped telling us what they going to do?
Because if they cant hold their promise the whole comunity screams and shouts like little babys.
The core idea sounds good and with more maps and all other improvements we shall see a good game but dont expect it to be a unique open world with hundret thousand of people walking around in an open universe.
Wait and let them 9mprove their product. If the comunity always says that they will leave after every little mistake PGI is doing we force them to focus on us instead of improving the game.
Sure the comunity is important but if PGI has always got to be afrait to loose everyone when they release something that we dont like it will totally block the production.
STOP CRYING ABOUT AN UNFINISHED PRODUCT AND STOP EXPECTING IT TO BE THE BEST MECHWARRIOR GAME EVER.because if you dont expect it to be the best Mechwarrior ever it will be the best.This is only for those that show the discribed behaviour.

Edited by KuritaGuard, 06 April 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Vermaxx]

So...this isn't an unbiased information thread. It was a poorly disguised attack on the people you don't like.

So, this is a discrimination piece. Good work.

[Aim-Bot]

Vermaxx, on 06 April 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

So...this isn't an unbiased information thread. It was a poorly disguised attack on the people you don't like.

So, this is a discrimination piece. Good work.

No sure not.
Its more like : Please Please Please stop complaining and raging so much.

Edited by KuritaGuard, 06 April 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[Appogee]

KuritaGuard, on 03 April 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

As soon as everything of the " core product " is implemented and tested wich means that it runs as bug free as possible the developers have something to work with and can focus on stuff that we all wish to see.

Your theory would make a lot of sense ... if that was what was actually happening with MWO.

But what is actually happening with MWO development is not a focus bug-fixing, but instead, on attracting purchases of MechCredits, via premium content and peripheral features. (Look at the last patch... a pink Mech with loudspeakers you can only buy, half-assed arty and airstrike effects, but no progress at all on the HUD issues which have plagued the game for 9 months now.) Actions speak louder than declarations of Open Beta status.

MWO has launched. Define ''Open Beta'' however you like, but arguing definitions is ultimately pointless. What's most important is what the devs do - and don't - focus on.

By the way, I am fine with PGI trying to make money off the title. I gave them some money yesterday in fact, and I hope they get rich. I did so partly in sheer appreciation for the fun I'm having with their game.

Edited by Appogee, 06 April 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[Noobzorz]

Roadbeer, on 05 April 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

Hey, I have a question.

Who here is old enough to remember when Beta actually meant that you were trying to test the game, and not just use it as a preview to have a leg up on the competition before it went "live" and the forums were for the most part feedback and not QQ?

Good times.

Beta forums have been about QQ at least as far back as WarCraft III. Seeing as I think that's almost as far back as external betas go, I'd say that literally no one is old enough to remember that.

Anyway, this whole argument is based on a bunch of ridiculous semantics. QQ IS feedback, and when it's phrased intelligently, it is good feedback too.

Edited by Noobzorz, 06 April 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Barghest Whelp]

You know, if this is a beta, then surely that makes us beta testers? And if we're beta testers, then how come we need to pay in order to unlock some of the content? Surely you would want all your beta testers to have full access to every feature in the game, right?

Or maybe they just want to test the payment software to ensure it works properly, and make a quick buck in the process. Right?

[Roadbeer]

Noobzorz, on 06 April 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Beta forums have been about QQ at least as far back as WarCraft III. Seeing as I think that's almost as far back as external betas go, I'd say that literally no one is old enough to remember that.

Anyway, this whole argument is based on a bunch of ridiculous semantics. QQ IS feedback, and when it's phrased intelligently, it is good feedback too.

You're experience may vary, my Beta experience goes back to UO

[Odins Fist]

An unfinished product brought to "MARKET", and selling goods and services, is still an unfinished product that has been brought to market.

Testing, ok, we are still testing, I understand that, but still using the "It's Beta" excuse is both sad and tired.
I have played "MANY" released titles that have to do weapons balancing, brought out new maps, sold content, multiple patches and none of this during a so-called beta stage.

MWO is not limited to certain players, it is available for "ANYONE" on planet Earth to play, and purchase goods and services from, and that in itself absolutely disqualifies the term "BETA" being applied.. It is an unfinished product..

Sad and tired old excuses are still sad and tired excuses, regardless of yet to be released content.
Anyone that wants to argue sematics can go ahead and do so.. Semantics are just white noise.
Call it what it is "yet to be released content".. END OF STORY...

[Infernus1986]

Game is set to be released fully this summer
After that no more excuses.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Infernus1986, on 06 April 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Game is set to be released fully this summer
After that no more excuses.

Cant wait for launch to see all the bohicas that cry themselves to sleep with "its a beta" doing the same thing with "but it just launched"

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Noobzorz, on 06 April 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Beta forums have been about QQ at least as far back as WarCraft III. Seeing as I think that's almost as far back as external betas go, I'd say that literally no one is old enough to remember that.

I remember before PCs does that make me old enough?
My first PC was a Tandy1000HX - didnt even have a hard drive lol

[Vermaxx]

CW is coming out in phases. Keep that in mind when you think "release" means a major game state change.

[MischiefSC]

darkfall13, on 05 April 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

I like how you solely went to support tickets and bug reporting (which is available and encouraged even at release so that doesn't help your case and I didn't use it in my reply). Most every game happens server side nowadays, especially f2p games. And even if it didn't, devs would gather data from their servers for what they can, even after launch, so again that doesn't help your case.

How about we look at the situation in a different light? We've been in Open Beta for what? About 5 months? As has already been stated to the media (not the forums, because we're not beta testers apparently) the latest we'll be launching is Sept 21, which would be another 5 months from now. Looking back 5 months we have:

• Some more mechs
  
• Some more maps (I'm not belittling the effort and manpower required to make either, merely stating as fact)
  
• Bug fixes
  
• Various tweaks
  
• The "Information Warfare Pillar" (ie just ECM, count TAG and the PPC scramble if you want)
  
• MC content (which again, I have no problem with and I didn't list it as a point of contention)

That's about it, looking forward 5 months:

• The rest of the pillars, considering this is core content whether your definition is just
  
• Rest of the mechs? Let alone announcing more? (We can all agree not needed for launch, but on the other side of the coin you could have said that about all the other mechs they have added since CB)
  
• More maps? (Again not needed but it's on the plate)
  
• Community Warfare (If they want to make some sort of epic feature or take the cheap way out and do WoT stuff has yet to be seen, but considering their high aspirations on all content I hope for the best)
  
• Tutorial (Again not needed for launch, but you're sure in the hell going to make this easy on all the fresh recruits by not including it, especially considering today alone in my play time how many people had to be coached in game how to even move their stompy robot, let alone be helpful)
  
• More bug fixes (Because this happens even outside of beta)
  
• More tweaks (This is "beta" after all)
  
• Of course more MC content
  
• That pesky little thing that happens in 3050 might need to be looked at by then which has a whole lot tied to it
  
• And I'm sure more that I'm forgetting

Seems like a pretty full plate, yes I know people learn, they get better at doing their thing and therefore faster, but since we do actually have a time frame to go off of, makes it kind of hard to ignore how much is left. Let alone whatever PGI decides is the minimum required for launch it still needs to be in-game for some time to be "tested" by us, the "beta testers." So now is that definition of Alpha looking?

So show me where in the definition of 'open beta' it says that it has to be.... closed? That's a closed beta. There are no semantics to argue. It's an open beta. That you refuse to get this when the definition of the term has been posted for you repeatedly is just bordering on strange. You're upset that it's been in open beta for 5 months? Macs OS X open beta was $30 to buy and lasted a year.

I'm going to post this again because clearly the 3 times I've posted it wasn't enough.

The definition of open beta:

Quote

Beta

Beta, named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet, is the software development phase following alpha. It generally begins when the software is feature complete. Software in the beta phase will generally have many more bugs in it than completed software, as well as speed/performance issues and may still cause crashes or data loss. The focus of beta testing is reducing impacts to users, often incorporating usability testing. The process of delivering a beta version to the users is called beta release and this is typically the first time that the software is available outside of the organization that developed it.
The users of a beta version are called beta testers. They are usually customers or prospective customers of the organization that develops the software, willing to test the software without charge, often receiving the final software free of charge or for a reduced price. Beta version software is often useful for demonstrations and previews within an organization and to prospective customers. Some developers refer to this stage as a preview, prototype, technical preview (TP), or early access. Some software is kept in perpetual beta—where new features and functionality are continually added to the software without establishing a firm "final" release.
Open and closed beta

Developers release either a closed beta or an open beta; closed beta versions are released to a restricted group of individuals for a user test by invitation, while open beta testers are from a larger group, or anyone interested. The testers report any bugs that they find, and sometimes suggest additional features they think should be available in the final version.

Open betas serve the dual purpose of demonstrating a product to potential consumers, and testing among an extremely wide user base likely to bring to light obscure errors that a much smaller testing team might not find.

What we are in right now is probably best defined as UAT, or User Acceptance Testing. How consumers deal with the product and what their feedback is prior to release. Which is something clearly defined in the open beta stage of a product.

Let's turn this around. Show me an official definition of a released product that fits into the state that MWO is in right now. Show me somewhere, anywhere, in any official definition of the development cycles or lifecycle management of ANY software product that discusses where taking money makes something not a beta anymore. Show me anywhere in the definition of an open beta in any official discussion of it or even professional discussion of it where having it available in the open to the public makes it not... an open beta. Which is, by the way, exactly what the term 'open beta' was coined to define.

Odins Fist, on 06 April 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

An unfinished product brought to "MARKET", and selling goods and services, is still an unfinished product that has been brought to market.

Testing, ok, we are still testing, I understand that, but still using the "It's Beta" excuse is both sad and tired.
I have played "MANY" released titles that have to do weapons balancing, brought out new maps, sold content, multiple patches and none of this during a so-called beta stage.

MWO is not limited to certain players, it is available for "ANYONE" on planet Earth to play, and purchase goods and services from, and that in itself absolutely disqualifies the term "BETA" being applied.. It is an unfinished product..

Sad and tired old excuses are still sad and tired excuses, regardless of yet to be released content.
Anyone that wants to argue sematics can go ahead and do so.. Semantics are just white noise.
Call it what it is "yet to be released content".. END OF STORY...

Read the definition above.

As much as I realize this is probably a waste of time I'm going to try and explain this again.

Businesses of all sort have to fund product development. Games, software, cars, widgets, doesn't matter. That funding takes place before, during and after the products inception, development and release.

Taking money while a product is in beta has nothing what so ever in any way to do with where the product is in its development cycle.

I'm going to say that again, bigger and louder because it seems to confuse a lot of people.

Taking money while a product is in beta has nothing what so ever in any way to do with where the product is in its development cycle.

If you don't understand that it's a personal failing in comprehension, not an issue on PGIs part.

Here's what it boils down to.

Attempting to say that MWO is not in open beta is an attempt to try and make PGI responsible for your lack of understanding of what the term 'open beta' means. If you got invested in MWO with the clear notification that it's an open beta but didn't actually understand what open beta meant that's not PGIs problem. Attempting to foist responsibility for explaining what 'open beta' is off or even more irrational trying to redefine hat 'open beta' means is touching on narcissism. This idea that somehow a personal failure to comprehend a clearly defined and commonly used term is someone elses fault.

I'm going to close with this again because it's clearly a tough one for some people to grok but it's sorta important.

Taking money while a product is in beta has nothing what so ever in any way to do with where the product is in its development cycle. It's still in open beta regardless of who pays for it, how, what price they pay or if they pay at all.