75 replies to this topic

[Aim64C]

The clans are complete roflstomp by comparison to the IS.

Though they have very small numbers and are taking on a freely reproducing and manufacturing population within its own supply network. ... how you put that 'reality' into balance in MWO is beyond me.

I mean... as others have pointed out... the Nova ("Blackhawk") is like having -two- Jenner Foxtrots in a single platform... with over-charged lasers. "Unleash the power of the sun" doesn't even begin to describe the kind of insane damage capability the Nova has.

And figure that any mech that can reasonably mount one LRM 20 rack can mount two Clan LRM20 racks in the same place (providing a few extra crits exist... which shouldn't be a problem considering endo-steel only takes up 7 crits).... even if they behave identical to IS LRMs for gameplay purposes... ouch.

Even with the current LRM nerf...

Two well-placed shots from virtually any clan mech can reduce an IS mech attempting to be equivalent into a melted pile of slag (or pile of confetti... whichever).

Though I can't wait for the 6 CERPPC SuperNova. That's sure to be well received. Nothing like a 90-point pinpoint alpha with nearly two kilometers of range (if the current energy weapon formula carries over). So you shut down afterward and vent heat for a few seconds... they've got twenty seconds of flat-out sprinting to get within firing range of you.

[LordDeathStrike]

Artgathan, on 03 April 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

There has been a fair amount of speculation concerning the balance of Clan mechs and equipment once they enter the game. Many players suggest that 5 v 8, or 10 v 12 drops will be required to equalize the playing field. I don't think this is a particularly good solution, as the coordination of many will probably overwhelm the efforts of few. That said, I think that Clans may already be balanced (aside from some minor tweaking).

The secret weapon in the Inner Sphere's pocket that will allow their technology to remain competitive is simple: heat.

With 1.4 DHS, Clan weapons will simply generate too much heat to make extensive use of them viable. I did the calculations for the Heat Per Second (HPS) and Heat Dissipation (H-) for a Timber Wolf (Madcat).

Given a Timber Wolf Alpha:

• 2 LRM 20
  
• 2 ER Large Laser
  
• 2 ER Medium Laser
  
• 1 Medium Pulse Laser
  
• 2 MG
  
• 15 DHS, 10 Engine, 5 External

This mech has a heat threshold of 57 (30 Basic, + 20 'True' DHS, + 7 '1.4' DHS). An alpha strike generates 46.8 points of heat (your heat bar spikes to 82%). It dissipates 2.7 heat per second. Firing everything constantly, it generates 11.05 HPS.



Firing just the ER LL and ER ML, it generates 7.2 HPS. Clearly this mech will run hot.

NOTE: Heat and HPS value for the ER ML were based on the heat profile of the LL / ER LL (IE: I divided the heat of the ER LL by the heat of the LL and then multiplied that by the heat of the ML).

To counter the 'oh but you can just strip the MGs and add more DHS': yes, you can. At most you can add 2 more DHS (at 1.4 H-). Big deal. You've increased the heat dissipation by 0.28 points per second (bringing the mech up to almost 3.0 heat dissipation per second).

Essentially I forsee players having to make intelligent choices when it comes to their loadout. Clan weapons will save critical space and tonnage, while dealing more damage at longer ranges, but will generate considerably more heat.

TLDR; existing heat system combined with critical space limits balances the Clans.

i never liked the prime variant, i always used the madcat D in mech 3 mplayer. 2 er ppcs, 4 streak 6s, and it had enough dhs to keep fireing the missiles or the ppcs continuously, you only ran hot enough too coolant flush while using them at the same time. and need i remind you how dangerous quad streak 6s will be in mwo? a 6 streak 2 cat a1 can already shred scouts and meds head on in seconds, and if you get behind the heaviers, they eat the back armor right off them too and thats only with 12 missiles, 24 will be far more painfull.

[Streaks]

My favorite clan mech in MW2 ended up being a Masakari. 7 ERMed and one UAC20 with the rest in armor, DHS and ammo. I would set up chainfire and had my stick software configured to cycle to the next available weapon in a given group after I fired. So I just facerolled the trigger to glory with the lasers and saved the UAC20 for hard targets or assault mechs

[Royalewithcheese]

Streaks, on 03 April 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

My favorite clan mech in MW2 ended up being a Masakari. 7 ERMed and one UAC20 with the rest in armor, DHS and ammo. I would set up chainfire and had my stick software configured to cycle to the next available weapon in a given group after I fired. So I just facerolled the trigger to glory with the lasers and saved the UAC20 for hard targets or assault mechs

Recipe for MW2 success:

Take robot.
Remove everything you dislike.
Add all the Medium Lasers.
Add all the Double Heatsinks.
Add jumpjets.
Maybe some other weapon if you want to mix it up.

[Kiiyor]

Artgathan, on 03 April 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

They deal the same damage and heat as IS counterparts (all Clan UACs do, except the 10 which deals 1 less point of heat per shot). You save 2 tons and some critical space, so you can bring more ammo / an extra DHS. Not a massive advantage.

Bloody huge advantage. They could get 2 clan er med lasers in there with that. Also, their DHS only use 2 slots, and they get endo and ff for the same slots as just one of those for us. Also, they run XL engines that don't die with the loss of a torso. Also, their LRMs have no minimum range. Also, their PPCs weigh less, generate less heat, and hit like gauss. I, for one, do not entertain hopes of fighting them competitIvely on even footing.

[Artgathan]

Kiiyor, on 03 April 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

Bloody huge advantage. They could get 2 clan er med lasers in there with that. Also, their DHS only use 2 slots, and they get endo and ff for the same slots as just one of those for us. Also, they run XL engines that don't die with the loss of a torso. Also, their LRMs have no minimum range. Also, their PPCs weigh less, generate less heat, and hit like gauss. I, for one, do not entertain hopes of fighting them competitIvely on even footing.

They could get two ER ML in there with that, but that's assuming that they have 2 free energy hardpoints.

Yes, the Clans do have significant advantages in terms of technology - that's why I said we'll see some tweaking. However I think that Clan mechs will run very hot. We might even see them get more heat penalties to balance them further. But they will not be the OMGWTFBBQROFLSTOMP Powerhouse that they were in TT.

Edited by Artgathan, 04 April 2013 - 04:46 AM.

[Belorion]

Clan double heat sinks are 2 crit slots which means you can pack a lot more on...

just saying.

[Kiiyor]

Artgathan, on 04 April 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

They could get two ER ML in there with that, but that's assuming that they have 2 free energy hardpoints.

Yes, the Clans do have significant advantages in terms of technology - that's why I said we'll see some tweaking. However I think that Clan mechs will run very hot. We might even see them get more heat penalties to balance them further. But they will not be the OMGWTFBBQROFLSTOMP Powerhouse that they were in TT.

And that's probably true. It's the blank canvas that's the problem. Mad scientists with clan tech could concoct some truly horrifying things.

The DHS adjustments have hit the IS tech pretty hard, especially where crit slots are concerned. Often you just can't cram in enough sinks, even with free tonnage. The clans won't really have that problem. Well, they'll probably have to reign back a little (my initial plans for a heat viable 6LL Awesome were dashed!) but hey won't be hit as hard as we were.

[OpCentar]

Deathlike, on 03 April 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Short answer: They will have Clan DHS operate at less than the 1.4 DHS versions.
Long answer: For balance reasons.

I'm thinking the opposite.

Clanners get true 2.0 DHS but with way more heat generated from their weapons.

Trick is to balance out the damage numbers so that IS mechs are still viable but at a range disadvantage.

[LT Kinslayer]

I believe IS will get access to clantech.
Everybody happy, except the purists, but those are a minority anyway.

I believe PGI is working on getting private matches possible at some time in the future. (correct me if I'm wrong here)
When that is implemented the purists will be able to create their own lore consistent matches
and all will be perfect. I would join such games, not because I care about lore, but it would be a slightly
different way to play the game. So if this has been implemented before clans arrive, then the Clan-vs-IS
becomes a non issue since both sides will have access to the same tech.

I could well be wrong though

[Cairbre]

Sure, some variants don't work out too well in the new heat form- but for every dud, there's a Timberwolf D- stock, it sports 30 PP dmg in 2 PPCs, and 24 streak SRMS. It is a SRM4 splatcat at close range, + the PPCs to open up its own targets, stock.

Leaving aside the Omni, that's one of the most feared close range mechs in the game, with the long range firepower of an AWS-8Q, at longer range... you know, just to keep it all fair.

The Clans will be fine, and utterly terrifying to us freebirth scum.

[Pinselborste]

Prathios, on 03 April 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

My God you're right! How on earth did Mechwarrior 1-4 and LL get around this glaring issue... sigh.

Living Legends got around this issue by dropping TT stats and using their own wich they designed for a real time game where you aim yourself and is balanced between clan and IS. PGI should have done the same.

Its balanced Clans or dead game, and i dont think pgi wants the game to die.

Edited by Pinselborste, 04 April 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[Artgathan]

Kiiyor, on 04 April 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

And that's probably true. It's the blank canvas that's the problem. Mad scientists with clan tech could concoct some truly horrifying things.

The DHS adjustments have hit the IS tech pretty hard, especially where crit slots are concerned. Often you just can't cram in enough sinks, even with free tonnage. The clans won't really have that problem. Well, they'll probably have to reign back a little (my initial plans for a heat viable 6LL Awesome were dashed!) but hey won't be hit as hard as we were.

I agree that a blank canvas would be terrifying. Even then though I seriously doubt that players will be able to make ferociously OP builds. We will consistently see players running out of critical space before tonnage because they will not be able to mount enough heat sinks to make filling all of their weapon slots viable.

Sure, a Black Hawk / Nova can mount 12 ER ML, but that alpha strike generates 64 heat (which doesn't account for the extra heat penalty applied to group fired weapons), and it only packs 14 DHS (giving it 2.56 heat dissipation per second, with 16.2 HPS generated). Sure you can strip the jump jets to slap in another 2 DHS, but it's really a drop in the bucket.

I also suspect that omnipods will present themselves as a space-limited box on the mech (similar to the MW4 system). For example, a Clan LRM20 rack occupies 4 critical slots. If you remove it, you can mount whatever weapons you want there, as long as they occupy 4 critical slots or less. For example, 4 ER ML or 2 ER PPC, or 1 ER PPC + 2 ER ML would be acceptable.

This allows for some pretty hefty customization, but let's face it: replace an LRM20 with any of the combinations above will give the pilot insane heat management problems.

I predict seeing many Clan mechs that strip out lots of weapons in order to mount more heatsinks.

Quote

Sure, some variants don't work out too well in the new heat form- but for every dud, there's a Timberwolf D- stock, it sports 30 PP dmg in 2 PPCs, and 24 streak SRMS. It is a SRM4 splatcat at close range, + the PPCs to open up its own targets, stock.

Even this build will have heat problems. 4 SRM6 generate 4 HPS and 2 ER PPCs generate 7.34. Is the firepower scary? Of course. It will take serious heat management skills to make it terrifying though.

Edited by Artgathan, 04 April 2013 - 05:51 AM.

[3rdworld]

Artgathan, on 04 April 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

(which doesn't account for the extra heat penalty applied to group fired weapons)

There is no such thing.

[FupDup]

Artgathan, on 04 April 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

However I think that Clan mechs will run very hot.

Ballistics (especially Gauss) and Streaks say hi.

Edited by FupDup, 04 April 2013 - 06:26 AM.

[Rippthrough]

Franchi, on 03 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

No it was becasue we would have jenners coring atlai in 4 seconds.

Oh yeah, that thing that still happens because they borked engine heatsinks anyway.