313 replies to this topic

[The Mech behind you]

first I choose yes but after a few matches today with lots of ECM fielded I revoted No. I can't stand that Null-Sig ability

[Teralitha]

TruePoindexter, on 04 April 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

That's the point - It keeps carrying only LRM's from being advisable. Pre ECM I would see many mechs who would just sit way in the back and lob missiles while relying on their team's locks. Now those locks are not reliable. It makes using the weapons a tactical decision instead of a knee jerk one. A larger issue is that LRM's are not performing where they should right now.

Its not a tactical decision. Its just plain stupid to bring LRMs now. Pre ECM, you know what skilled players did to those LRM boats hiding at the back? We flanked them and killed them. Missles dont work inside 180meters... THAT is how those were countered. USING REAL SKILL. Not using some ECM noob I win device.

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It's easy to say that they should change a weapon's behavior so let me play devil's advocate here and ask you how you would change it? It's a missile - you lock onto targets and then fire it. In what way would you change behavior to discourage exclusive use of the weapon without overly weakening it and still providing meaningful choices to the player? It's not an easy question so carefully consider your answer.

Actually it is very easy, just requires time to program. My suggestion for this is already sent to the devs(a long time ago). But just to put it in lay terms for you.... MW4 LRM mechanic. Its based entirely on skill, and allows you to target any hitbox by actually aiming it.

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Having played in the leagues during the early launch of MW4 I would point out that it was also largely inconsequential. MW4 was a broken game and is the main reason why ranked play from MW3 died fairly quickly after the transition to MW4. MW4's main boon was a solid campaign and interesting story that culminated in MW4:Mercs. Its game balance was abysmal.

No, your opinion of MW4 game balance is abysmal. If we copied and pasted the ECM/BAP and SSRM/LRM mechanics over to MWO, it would be 10000x's improved.

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Playing devil's advocate again (sorry I kinda enjoy it) but why should there not be a hard counter in a game? Think about a balanced fighting game like Soul Calibur or Street Fighter or an RTS. There are some definite hard counters in those games and yet they offer enough depth to encourage high ranked league play. How can this be if hard counters are bad?

Nothing wrong with hard counters. Its just that ECM is a hard counter to too many things. Where in your example... 1 thing was a counter for only 1 other thing... rather than many things. If it was, then only that thing would ever be played, just like here... only ECM mechs are used in premades that want to win.

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I also think people need to stop viewing ECM in a bubble - there are other aspects of the game to consider. In the past ECM lights were very difficult to kill. People incorrectly attributed this to ECM because of a dumb idea that SSRMs were the only way to kill lights but in truth it was just the fact that hit detection on fast moving lights was very poor. Lights in general were just hard to kill. We have much better hit detection now making the ECM light much more vulnerable than it had been in the past. The AS7-D-DC is also no where near as intimidating as it had been simply because the game style has shifted away from slow lumbering point blank encounters. Fights now break out at much longer ranges and demand more mobility - two areas where an Atlas tends to not be the best mech for the job. It's important to take in the game as a whole and not just one aspect of it.

Long range fights are more common now because of the new maps. People are bringing more range weaponry because of those maps. Take away alpine and toumaline... and nothing will have changed.
Yes, you need to take the game as a whole, not just the solo play aspect of it. ECM affects solo pug play and 8man premades in entirely different ways. In solo play the occasional ECM is merely a small annoyance.(because there is no coordination it makes no difference.) In 8 man premades ECM is the dominating factor in every match.(because ECM nerfs coordination and 8man teams rely on coordination, and therefore they hate ECM.)

It seems like all your views are made through the eyes of a solo player.

[TruePoindexter]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 04 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

It does not. Here are the ECM tactics, that brough so much variety to the game:
Hang back and snipe with LRM immunity.
Rush up and brawl with LRM immunity.
Don’t worry about piloting skill, maneuvering, and evasion; those things are all handled by ECM now.

I get concerned when I see statements like this because it appears to be based in a game where Lasers/PPCs/AC's/Gauss do not exist. Yes you don't have to worry about LRM's while manuvering - only you have to worry about getting shot in the face still. Also you in fact still do have to worry about LRM's as ECM can be countered through specific means. The only reason why LRM's are scarce right now is because of their poor performance. Even during the height of the ECM craze there were numerous LRM boats on the field.

Agent 0 Fortune, on 04 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Communication and teamwork, two things that don’t have adequate in-game functionality. Maybe PGI should have implemented those first. A working command console and c3 network.

Well we already have a C3 Network for free - mechs share their targets by default. I'm not sure what the Command Console will do that taking command via the battle grid doesn't already offer.

Agent 0 Fortune, on 04 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Let me rephrase that for you: “it allows ecm teams to wreck non-ecm teams because our LRMs work, and yours don’t.

I would argue that it allows ECM teams to wreck non-ECM teams who do not coordinate.

Agent 0 Fortune, on 04 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

That was a poor excuse when SSRMs were overpowered. When they all hit the CT every time, and they did 2.5 damage per missile. Now it is just laughable.

Missiles in general are quite poor right now. In the past though when ECM was first rolled out though SSRM's struck multiple locations and were definitely an overwhelming force for lights. Even to this day I would argue that even a well played light could still not hold up against SSRM boating.

Agent 0 Fortune, on 04 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

It does just the opposite. Before a scout had to be quick witted and a good pilot to get in, get intel, and stay alive. Now all the “scouts” are just mini-brawlers who are dependent on ECM to replace skill.

Please explain how being able to not be detected has made scouting worse.

Agent 0 Fortune, on 04 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Did you even play before ECM. This was a huge role for the scout. Without ECM they used to herd the enemy around, pulling them into ambushes, or getting them to turn around at the right moment. In fact I have never seen a good ambush accomplished with ECM, and ECM ambush amounts to moving to the enemy in a straight line taking advantage of LRM defense and their inability to focus fire.

Please explain how ECM's existence forces scouts to no longer act as decoys.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

sC4r, on 04 April 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

i must say 44% peeps that are satisfied is... HUGE
i expected this to be like 20 vs 80 for this ..I.,

i must say having it on fixed locations is nice idea
and allowing seeing teammates in bubble is a bit too much though but w/e... will not have to double check for teammates so SUX TO BE YOU

The community is pretty evenly split, although that is not unexpected since about half the mech in a given match use ECM.

[Teralitha]

TruePoindexter, on 04 April 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

By the time those were in the game balance had checked out and thrown in the towel. MW4 league play in early launch was exclusively 6 ER Large Daishi. If you ran anything else you were wrong. The ideal builds changed as expansions/patches were made but at no point did it have even a fraction of the depth found in MWO.

I enjoyed MW4 a lot but it simply was a bad game for balance.

You are so wrong.... LOL And Your statement is completely backwards my friend... its MWO that has a fraction of the depth that MW4 had. You seriously must have only played MW4 for 1 day to have that opinion. I regularly killed those daishi noobs while I piloted lights and mediums.... but then, I was an exceptionally skilled pilot. Anyone of below average skill would have your opinion of that game....

Edited by Teralitha, 04 April 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Mancu]

ECM with a hard point will still be the #1 choice for all skill-less noobs that want an easy advantage. So this doesn't really look like it will do much.

[TruePoindexter]

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Why does there need to be forced communication? Dont coordinated teams communicate and use teamwork already? People need radar and voice coms to coordinate. All ECM does is nerf team coordination and teamwork. It doenst enhance it in any way.

You do not need radar to coordinate - that is what the map is for (when it works). You do need to communicate but you do not need voice coms. Examples:

• 3 in E5
  
• they're moving 4 line
  
• light heading to base
  
• push to D3
  
• focus A

Personally I would love to see quick shortcut chat items implemented. It would make even those small lines easier to type.

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

So an enemy team takes all ECM mechs. The map has cover. Your team which specializes in making use of LRMs... is all dead, doing very little or no damage. The counters for ECM are pretty useless in that situation. Only time the team that uses LRMs does well is if there are only 1 or 2 ECM enemies. Guess what... every coordinated team focuses on using lots of ECM, and infighter builds. Not saying thats all there is, Im just saying thats really the kind of gameplay that ECM promotes.

Let's avoid these extreme situations. The only time I've seen this happen is in 8 mans where the meta game is/was legitimately broken. It's extremely rare that a team has 8 ECM mechs and I have never seen an all LRM/SSRM team.

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Light mechs need a counter. SSRMs are it. All; ECM has done is make light mechs even more powerful.

No light mechs do not need a counter - they need good hit detection which they have now and it's going to keep getting better.

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

[/list]This is just fine. Except that the ECM light doesnt just do that, because it has a area radar disruption it more beneficial to run around the enemy team blocking their radar disorienting them, making them easy targets for your team... It should not have that ability.

The radar disruption only occurs at extreme close range. Is it normal for an intelligence gathering scout to be with in smelling distance of the enemy?

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

It was always possible to ambush enemies, even before ECM. ECM just makes it so you can "ambush" on the go. No need to shut down in a hiding spot waiting for enemy mechs to approach.(This is a true ambush) ECM is a roaming ambush. no longer do you have to hide shut down... no, now you can sneak up on your enemy unseen without using any skill whatsoever. Which is overpowered.

No one ever did that before because the reality of play makes it nearly impossible. Thermals would give you away or while moving a tiny portion of your mech would give you away. The only cause were it could work is if you managed to hide in a gully/behind a hill out of LOS in which case ECM is not a factor.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 04 April 2013 - 12:21 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

You are so wrong.... LOL And Your statement is completely backwards my friend... its MWO that has a fraction of the depth that MW4 had. You seriously must have only played MW4 for 1 day to have that opinion. I regularly killed those daishi noobs while I piloted lights and mediums.... but then, I was an exceptionally skilled pilot. Anyone of below average skill would have your opinion of that game....

Highly unlikely. Hit detection was client side with no mechs being able to move fast enough to exceed an Atlas's rate of turn. All 6 lasers will hit your CT every single time. Things changed later but by that point it stopped mattering.

[jakucha]

Teralitha, on 04 April 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

You are so wrong.... LOL And Your statement is completely backwards my friend... its MWO that has a fraction of the depth that MW4 had. You seriously must have only played MW4 for 1 day to have that opinion. I regularly killed those daishi noobs while I piloted lights and mediums.... but then, I was an exceptionally skilled pilot. Anyone of below average skill would have your opinion of that game....

I don't know about that. MW4 had great single player, but the multiplayer consisted of standing behind a hill and JJ alpha'ing. Wasn't very diverse on many of the maps.

[zmeul]

KinLuu, on 03 April 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

Am I satisfied with the answer? Yeah, more or less.

Am I satisfied with the speed of the answer? Hell, no.

let's take this plausible scenario for Clan battles:
teams uses 2-3 ECMed mechs, one-two to cover the bulk of the team and the other (preferably the Raven) to run interference
with new ECM, is impossible to shield the team - to have a complete coverage, every mech must be ECMed

how exactly is this satisfactory? because with how the new ECM would work, I don't see it's value

Edited by zmeul, 04 April 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Team Leader]

I think it's a load of junk. For 1.5 tons ECM is still doing far too much and there are no drawbacks to taking it. The only things they are changing are total BS, and PPC and TAG are still not even counters. It's a load of crap really. They had 5 months to tell us basically they're not really changing anything. WTF.

zmeul, on 04 April 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

let's take this plausible scenario for Clan battles:
teams uses 2-3 ECMed mechs, one-two to cover the bulk of the team and the other (preferably the Raven) to run interference
with new ECM, is impossible to shield the team - to have a complete coverage, every mech must be ECMed

how exactly is this satisfactory? because with how the new ECM would work, I don't see it's value

Oh my gosh. Reading comprehension fail. Your ECM will still cover your allies from THEIR locks. However, if YOU are getting jammed by THEIR ECM, you will still be able to see your own guys info. That's it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

TruePoindexter, on 04 April 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

That's the point - It keeps carrying only LRM's from being advisable. Pre ECM I would see many mechs who would just sit way in the back and lob missiles while relying on their team's locks. Now those locks are not reliable. It makes using the weapons a tactical decision instead of a knee jerk one. A larger issue is that LRM's are not performing where they should right now.

There are multiple facets to this problem.
First, pre-ECM, ambushing was near impossible because nothing could hide you, and scouts more often than not could find you before you got close, so long range was often the way to go. Post-ECM, the meta shifted to be almost dominated by short-range builds, the rise of the AC20apult and Splatapult ensured that. LRMs pre-ECM were generally tied to a mech because you could use them at 1000 and the game was long range dominated. If ECM had no missile counter, suddenly you had the option to rush an LRM team, but LRMs would've been able to lock-on for direct fire so they weren't completely useless. That is a good case of counter-play, it makes taking LRMs a little more risky, but they can still do things. Even before the splash patch, LRMs were bad in competitive play. So what it boils down to, is why is removing an effective weapon suitable but just nerfing it or reducing its efficiency when around ECM bad? To me that sounds like the smarter decision.
Second, LRMs needed to be reworked anyways. They shouldn't be artillery style weapons but were being treated as such.
Third, when ECM hit, it removed an entire range bracket from Missile-oriented designs, meaning they were forced to take some sort of SRM if they wanted to be anywhere near worthwhile. Now once TAG was able to counter ECM outside of 180, missiles saw more use, but again not what the devs wanted. Missile mechs themselves used the TAG rather than relying on scouts, because it was too much for scouts, it was simply better to just do the Missile boat do the TAGing themselves.

TruePoindexter, on 04 April 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

It's easy to say that they should change a weapon's behavior so let me play devil's advocate here and ask you how you would change it? It's a missile - you lock onto targets and then fire it. In what way would you change behavior to discourage exclusive use of the weapon without overly weakening it and still providing meaningful choices to the player? It's not an easy question so carefully consider your answer.

Believe it or not, MW4 actually made aiming matter, because your missiles homed in on where you reticule was on the mech, not to mention it made achieving a lock harder, especially on those tiny mechs (imagine tracking Commandos). Not to mention those missiles had double the speed, so which I still believe gave adequate time for those close to cover to dodge, but still made those in the open pay the price, rather than give even those running between cover time to dodge. A lot of the special tricks to missiles I'm unaware of, because I wasn't generally a missile pilot. I've heard from missile pilot vets from the days of NBT-Mercs that there are indeed several tricks, and missiles weren't just fire and forget once you got locks, there were some nuances behind all that.

This is actually connected to your next few responses, but MW4 had some good ideas and concepts behind it, the main problem is they had just begun to apply some sort of math behind the balance with MW4, so many of the raw stats needed help (which mods improved, especially my favorite, the NBT-HC mod). All you have to do is look at Vengeance.
The Laser families have a system to them, the ERLL and ERLPL have the same damage per ton and heat to damage ratios. Mediums are the same way, ERML has the same damage per ton as the ERMPL and the same HTD ratios. There is also another system, the HTD ratio is affected by the DPT. The DPT of the ERLL is 0.4, the ERML is 0.5, the ERSL is 0.7. The HTD ratio for the ERLL is 1.0 (4/4), the ERML is 0.8 (4/5), the ERSL is (4/7). Notice the theme.....sure it didn't work because the raw numbers were bad, but like I said, the balanced improved typically with each different mod.

TruePoindexter, on 04 April 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Playing devil's advocate again (sorry I kinda enjoy it) but why should there not be a hard counter in a game? Think about a balanced fighting game like Soul Calibur or Street Fighter or an RTS. There are some definite hard counters in those games and yet they offer enough depth to encourage high ranked league play. How can this be if hard counters are bad?

I don't like games that largely come down to rock-paper-scissors. I like games that allow you to make a rock work within the game to actually beat paper. While these games do have depth, they are also different in that most is predefined for you. Characters in fighting games have predefined movesets. RTS have redefined structures and units, you have some level of choice, but it is still limited. That would be the equivalent of giving us stock mechs, and only allowing stock mechs. Those kind of games can have hard-counter for the simple fact of how they were designed. Half the depth in this game comes from the mechlab, where as those games have limited depth outside the actual game.

TruePoindexter, on 04 April 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

I also think people need to stop viewing ECM in a bubble - there are other aspects of the game to consider. In the past ECM lights were very difficult to kill. People incorrectly attributed this to ECM because of a dumb idea that SSRMs were the only way to kill lights but in truth it was just the fact that hit detection on fast moving lights was very poor. Lights in general were just hard to kill. We have much better hit detection now making the ECM light much more vulnerable than it had been in the past. The AS7-D-DC is also no where near as intimidating as it had been simply because the game style has shifted away from slow lumbering point blank encounters. Fights now break out at much longer ranges and demand more mobility - two areas where an Atlas tends to not be the best mech for the job. It's important to take in the game as a whole and not just one aspect of it.

I would agree that with the D-DC, it is on top not because of ECM, but it supports a loadout that is best within the meta, but why do is it need the icing on the cake, there is no canon reason for it, and it already boasts other good options. ECM ruined the main point in the AS7-K, the two AMS.....so why has this mech still been neglected, why didn't they just give ECM to it or the AS7-D?

Why have variants if the one that is considered the best or one of the best AND has a rare piece of equipment that only increases its purpose and capability. Especially when there are many other mechs that need love within that weight class (Awesomes, the Stalker without an LRM10 in one arm, AS7-K).

As for early MW4 leagues, yes, it was all ERLL all the time. How many you could stack and how much reflective armor you could mount is all that mattered. I played mainly with the mods though, and honestly they didn't change much of the core gameplay, just numbers, which leads me to believe that MW4 was the better game, because the gameplay had solid concepts. This game is nowhere near as diverse as even the heydey of the Mekpak 2.1a days of competitive gameplay, and that wasn't even the most diverse mod I've seen.

Edited by majora incarnate, 04 April 2013 - 12:39 PM.

[Jyi]

PGI's answer to ECM is absolutely horrible. It was clearly overpowered.. like 3 months ago. Now it's not even worth that much anywhere besides competitive 8v8 where min-max is the key to everything. Then again, poptarting with dual-ppc-gauss-3D's is now the fotm of 8v8, so ECM is pretty horrible even there.

To me it seems PGI has input lag with their implementation. It's like.. people criticize their decisions for months and nothing happens, then suddenly they implement like 3-5 nerfs in consecutive patches, making stuff completely useless. Then they take a couple more months before they realize they overnerfed the damn thing and they do huge buffs and the thing is overpowered again. This continues forever.

Example: LRM's and Streaks. Used to suck, buff the heck up. Then overpowered to max, everyone abuses, nerf in a hotfix. Buff again. Nerf again. Now ECM seems overpowered, because missiles suck donkeybawls.

PPC's and TAG hotfix in addition to ECM being quite easily destroyable make ECM bad enough. DDC's are already quite a joke against poptarts, who just keep the ECM disabled forever. A good shooter will take Ravens down in 1-2 alphas, thanks to hitbox-fix. I'd say Spider is probably now the most OP light in many ways, as it's still nearly impossible to hit consistently.

[zmeul]

Team Leader, on 04 April 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Oh my gosh. Reading comprehension fail. Your ECM will still cover your allies from THEIR locks. However, if YOU are getting jammed by THEIR ECM, you will still be able to see your own guys info. That's it.

then my mistake

Edited by zmeul, 04 April 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[Davers]

Thontor, on 04 April 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

The poll question seems pretty clear to me

"Are you satisfied by PGI's way of balancing ECM?"

I guess that fits your second completely biased "question"

I tried to make both my questions 'biased'.

[Seigaku]

There should be 2 kinds of ECM, and you can only have 1 equipped.

1st version: it only hides near friendlies mechs from the radar like it does now. but doesn't disrupts enemy sensors
2nd version: disrupts enemy sensor, but it doesn't hides anyone.

[Teralitha]

Seigaku, on 04 April 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

There should be 2 kinds of ECM, and you can only have 1 equipped.

1st version: it only hides near friendlies mechs from the radar like it does now. but doesn't disrupts enemy sensors
2nd version: disrupts enemy sensor, but it doesn't hides anyone.

Theres a little problem with your idea... disrupting sensors is how your mechs are hidden.

[Team Leader]

zmeul, on 04 April 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

then my mistake

Haha sorry to sound harsh. The more you know!

[zmeul]

Team Leader, on 04 April 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Haha sorry to sound harsh. The more you know!

my fail, it's almost 00AM here

[MechWarrior131925]

All this ECM talk got me thinking. Why does the game need ECM anymore?

LRMS aren't completely devastating a team anymore and you can effectively scout without an ECM. So lets just drop it all together.

I hated ECM at first, then got pissed and started using it. I opened up a can with it then started feeling bad for using it. I went to ECM rehab and I have been clean for over a month now.