313 replies to this topic

[General Taskeen]

Thontor, on 12 April 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Huh?

Yes? I also have to equip an engine in order to move, or ammo to fire ballistics or missiles, ...

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

All you really need to "counter" ECM is to not bring lock-on missiles, and learn to rely on your eyes to find the enemy instead of depending on the red triangle over their head. You don't need to barring a counter to counter in that case.

Irrelevant points on game balance and design.

PGI includes Record Sheet Mechs, so they should work. People can make Record Sheet Mechs from other Mechs. Equipping things is for a bonus of customization. A trial does not have that luxury, so stop pretending.

A. Any Mech comes with an Engine - Irrelevant
B. Any Mech comes with ammo, if the weapon needs it - Irrelevant
C. "All you need to counter is not bring a weapon" - Failure of Logic

Do I use LRMs? Rarely throughout all of Beta. I want variety and I want to be challenged by a level playing field. I am undefeated in my Craven-3L, because I like exploiting its unbalanced nature. I am willing to admit exploiting it, because I take the more ethical approach, and do not become hostage to PGI's poor balance functionality.

Edited by General Taskeen, 12 April 2013 - 09:15 AM.

[DocBach]

Thontor, on 12 April 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

thank you for clarifying.

I don't think one should equip a PPC to fire their LRMs. But I do think they should equip TAG.

TAG is suppose to be a buff, not a requirement to shoot. That's like saying the guys using direct fire weapons should have to include an extra ton of equipment capacitors to use their weapons. If I take an LRM-20, I'm already dedicating 10 tons + ammo to my weapon system. Why should I be required to take another ton of equipment to counter an item that is only 1.5 tons?

[General Taskeen]

Thontor, on 12 April 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

thank you for clarifying.

I don't think one should equip a PPC to fire their LRMs. But I do think they should equip TAG.

And if someone "wants to try a close to stock mode 'balanced' Mech with just lasers and LRMs" that is their choice, and they are punishing themselves.

Why should they have to equip TAG at all? Why shouldn't a stock C4 just WORK as it was intended to from TT or other Mech games where there was/is no missile lock out stealth. Even the PPC could still fire within min-range too, with implied disadvantages, which would be fine in this game, but that's an entirely different point.

Point Number 1. I am from the school of Mech Warrioring, MW3, MW:LL, where ECM is balanced and one does not need to bring any specific gear as hard counters. In MW:LL you take an ECM Mech for big passive buff to missile lock on times against you. ECM should only be passive buff, and never, ever should have programmed the way PGI did it. Then the natural argument is, "well then ECM would be pointless to use." Why, because one can no longer 'stealth' unless hard counters are equipped and present? No it would not be pointless to use with straight missile lock on time buffs, and countering what its supposed to do (reducing Artemis accuracy bonus, canceling the powerful TT NARC, etc.).

Point Number 2. So it is someone's punishment to use Mechs PGI included by putting variants based on Record Sheets into the game? If they want to use those Mechs that actually worked from Record Sheets, then I guess their out of luck in failure of balance land. No, that is failure of balance and logic.

Edited by General Taskeen, 12 April 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Livewyr, on 12 April 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

This is a fun game: Let me try

There are three kinds of people who love ECM.

1. Oblivious Brawlers
2. Slow mechs ignorant of the meaning of "Cover"
3. Light mechs (who also like using streaks)

Wasn't that fun...

you forgot:

4.) People who think "learn to counter LRMs in game" isnt a valid argument

[Zynithra Akutenshi]

General Taskeen, on 12 April 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Why should they have to equip TAG at all? Why shouldn't a stock C4 just WORK as it was intended to from TT or other Mech games where there was/is no missile lock out stealth.

While I'd love for ECM and BAP to be what they really are, I think people should consider that this is an MMO, and requires it's own mechanics. Besides, ECM is hardly the only thing out of balance - if stuff should work like it does in TT, then armor values, heat, and whatnot should be tweaked too.

All in all, PGI is trying hard just trying to give us a compromise that works on this scale.

[Zynithra Akutenshi]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 April 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

4.) People who think "learn to counter LRMs in game" isnt a valid argument

To be honest, I think the whole EHMAGERDS LRM/ECM QQing is silly. I have played plenty of LRM boats, and plenty of ECM equipped mechs. I die just as fast as anyone else if I don't do it right, and my opponents know how to aim.

So, basically, we could just shorten this whole 14-page thread into the following:

1. Don't be ********
2. Learn to aim

Edit: I didn't know re tard ed was offensive.. Does it censor stupid, too?

Edited by Zynithra Akutenshi, 12 April 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[DocBach]

Zynithra Akutenshi, on 12 April 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

To be honest, I think the whole EHMAGERDS LRM/ECM QQing is silly. I have played plenty of LRM boats, and plenty of ECM equipped mechs. I die just as fast as anyone else if I don't do it right, and my opponents know how to aim.

So, basically, we could just shorten this whole 14-page thread into the following:

1. Don't be ********
2. Learn to aim

Edit: I didn't know re tard ed was offensive.. Does it censor stupid, too?

3. get rid of the support role, since LRM's are skill-less compared to jump sniping?

[Zynithra Akutenshi]

DocBach, on 12 April 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

3. get rid of the support role, since LRM's are skill-less compared to jump sniping?

Jump sniping, LRMS and ECM are all similar in that they use the current game mechanics to deal damage in a relatively safe way. Prior to the LRM nerf, ECM was actually the lesser evil of the three - since laser state rewind was already in. Even with ECM mechs on the other team, I could do ridiculous damage with just 3x LRM15 and a tag. Hardly compares to a Commando 2D or Raven 3L now that you can hit them.

And I'm not saying LRMs or ECM are a bad thing. I think LRM's should be buffed - jump sniping is just fine as it is, and so is ECM. People don't understand the importance of using cover, or moving as a team.

We could just as well ask PGI to nerf stupidity, because that's the most common cause of death when playing with PUGs.

I do think that an LRM boat "supporting" a mountain wall from 1km away doesn't quite define the support role as I imagine it, though.

[Shadowsword8]

Zynithra Akutenshi, on 12 April 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

To be honest, I think the whole EHMAGERDS LRM/ECM QQing is silly. I have played plenty of LRM boats, and plenty of ECM equipped mechs. I die just as fast as anyone else if I don't do it right, and my opponents know how to aim.

So, basically, we could just shorten this whole 14-page thread into the following:

1. Don't be ********
2. Learn to aim

Edit: I didn't know re tard ed was offensive.. Does it censor stupid, too?

People like you are tiring...

You barge in there, throw rethorics based only on your perspective (with is heavily influenced by your skill level, good or bad. For all you know, you might be a mediocre player than has been boosted to average player just because of ECM), and then proceed to dismiss and ignore anything else. Rethoric that is even barely relevant to the subject.


The subject is not wether or not you can by killed while using ECM. Nodoby ever suggested it was making you invincible.

The subject is wether or not it bring too much advantage for 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots. And you, like most other pro-ECM players, are very carefully not touching that.

The debate has raged for over 5 months now, and I have yet to see a credible argument in favor of keeping the module at a negligible fitting requirement statut. Even PGI is avoiding that question.

Edited by Shadowsword8, 12 April 2013 - 10:04 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

DocBach, on 12 April 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

3. get rid of the support role, since LRM's are skill-less compared to jump sniping?

Absolutely I have done 481 damage firing 3,880 missiles from LRM20s and a mere 6,129 damage with 2,568 Medium lasers fired. Goodness LRMs so need to be banished to Nerfdom!

Wait! Medium lasers are no skill Noob weapons from what I am seeing. Why don't we make ECM affect LoS weapons too! I do far more damage with those than Missiles!!!

[StalaggtIKE]

Shadowsword8, on 12 April 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

People like you are tiring...

You barge in there, throw rethorics based only on your perspective (with is heavily influenced by your skill level, good or bad. For all you know, you might be a mediocre player than has been boosted to average player just because of ECM), and then proceed to dismiss and ignore anything else. Rethoric that is even barely relevant to the subject.


The subject is not wether or not you can by killed while using ECM. Nodoby ever suggested it was making you invincible.

The subject is wether or not it bring too much advantage for 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots. And you, like more other pro-ECM players, are very carefully not touching that.

The dabate has raged for over 5 months now, and I have yet to see a credible argument for keeping the module at a negligible fitting requirement statut. Even PGI is avoiding that question.

QFT.

[Zynithra Akutenshi]

Shadowsword8, on 12 April 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

People like you are tiring...

People like you are whiny and depressed.

Shadowsword8, on 12 April 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

You barge in there, throw rethorics based only on your perspective (with is heavily influenced by your skill level, good or bad. For all you know, you might be a mediocre player than has been boosted to average player just because of ECM), and then proceed to dismiss and ignore anything else. Rethoric that is even barely relevant to the subject.


The subject is not wether or not you can by killed while using ECM. Nodoby ever suggested it was making you invincible.

The subject is wether or not it bring too much advantage for 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots. And you, like most other pro-ECM players, are very carefully not touching that.

The debate has raged for over 5 months now, and I have yet to see a credible argument in favor of keeping the module at a negligible fitting requirement statut. Even PGI is avoiding that question.

I pilot plenty of non-ECM mechs. ECM annoys me at times, yes. I don't cry about it as much as you do. As a matter of fact, most of my favorite mech's can't equip ECM. But tell me, when piloting something that can, why wouldn't I use it?

Besides, there seem to be a whole lot of PUGs with no ECM around these days. So give it up already, you people like to start these threads every time you get killed by something with ECM.

[Novakaine]

ECM is a invisible shield in this bame period.

[Shumabot]

No, PGIs implementation of ECM is incompetent.

[StalaggtIKE]

Zynithra Akutenshi, on 12 April 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

I pilot plenty of non-ECM mechs. ECM annoys me at times, yes. I don't cry about it as much as you do. As a matter of fact, most of my favorite mech's can't equip ECM. But tell me, when piloting something that can, why wouldn't I use it?

Because ECM creates a bubble of protection. You don't have to equip it yourself in order to reap the benefits. What you didn't know that!?

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 12 April 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[Shumabot]

StalaggtIKE, on 12 April 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Because ECM creates a bubble of protection. You don't have to equip it yourself in order to reap the benefits. What you didn't know that!?

And the team with more instances of ECM counters the team with less. There's never not a reason to equip it. The minuscule loss of tonnage is worth it 100% of the time. The only reason to ever avoid it is if you know the exact makeup of your and the enemies team and they have zero missiles while you already have 4 Atlas D-DCs.

[DocBach]

Zynithra Akutenshi, on 12 April 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

I pilot plenty of non-ECM mechs. ECM annoys me at times, yes. I don't cry about it as much as you do. As a matter of fact, most of my favorite mech's can't equip ECM. But tell me, when piloting something that can, why wouldn't I use it?

Besides, there seem to be a whole lot of PUGs with no ECM around these days. So give it up already, you people like to start these threads every time you get killed by something with ECM.

There are plenty of 'Mechs with hardpoints that I don't fill. If ECM is so useful, no matter what chassis I am in that can take it I do in fact take it, perhaps it has a little too much utility for a 1.5 ton item?

Don't assume that because we don't like the mechanic, we are defenseless or useless against it. We just have a problem with a balance-wrecking, gameplay limiting piece of equipment. Instead of encouraging diversity and opening tactics, its forced most gameplay into narrow roles, and eliminated several roles from being viable. We have a problem with poor game design, and a lot of us have put in considerable funding into this game and don't like what we've been given in return.

http://mwomercs.com/...rfare-than-ecm/

Read that thread and give an honest opinion, please. Tell me if you think that that would expand gameplay rather than narrow it like ECM currently does.

Edited by DocBach, 12 April 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[Shadowsword8]

Zynithra Akutenshi, on 12 April 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

But tell me, when piloting something that can (use ECM), why wouldn't I use it?
...

There, you nailed it.

Now you just have to think about that until you come to understand that having no reason not to use it is the very thing that is wrong wih ECM, and you'll gain some credibiliby to speak about game balance.

[Zynithra Akutenshi]

My work here is done.

[Zynithra Akutenshi]

Thontor, on 12 April 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Interesting

Just a point of comparison, I have done 12,903 damage firing 32,640 missiles from LRM15s (2,176 volleys)

Come on, give the guys who try shooting through walls some credit.