38 replies to this topic

[Aegis Kleais]

In this Battlefield 3 Video aside from the "ground crew interaction", there are some points of note I'm hoping that PGI does likewise.

Not how the audio goes "muted" when the player puts on a helmet (audio occlusions) And once their in the cockpit, notice the scratched glass as well as the water beading.

If replicated in MWO, the beading (on a soft rain) would fall down in different directions for each cockpit. I know PGI was planning on bringing weather effects down the line, but I hope they at least have the "battle torn" scratches on the cockpit, and then down the line, have the water beading from random storms/showers.

[Vorus]

If they do add those things, they shouldn't be optional in the graphics menu. It'd stink if you would be at a tactical disadvantage because you like the realism, but other players turn it off to have a clearer view.

In any case, it would be sweet if they added stuff like that, for sure.

[Orion Pirate]

Pass...

Cockpits would not normally be glass. You would be looking at monitor displays in your cockpit. The sensors would use many different methods to give you what you see. Optics would have a coating where water would hardly have any effect, because it would not stick and instantly run off, heck maybe some kind of electro-static method of making sure particle matter never touched the sensors etc...

If mechs really had glass cockpits, then light mechs would all be equipped with paint sprayers to blind the enemy. Heck everyone would...

Edited by Orion Pirate, 01 June 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[Aegis Kleais]

Though it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, Orion, you took realism too far. This game is not based on extreme levels of realism. How corny is it that a Mech would run around with paint sprayers? Such excessively high levels of realism lead to a sharp loss in the entertainment value of the game.

Tungsten has the highest melting point. At heat levels previously indicated by the game, the ambient heat generated would literally melt the Mech into a pile of goop. So let's make it that if you get over 50% heat, your Mech's body parts start warping and falling off. It's realistic, it's just not fun.

Adding a texture to the cockpit glass isn't being done in a way where it is going to even slightly obscure your vision. It was a request to simply make the cockpit seem more realistic. Right now, screenshots make it seems as if there's nothing between you and the environment. It's a purely clear sheet of material. No sun flare reflections or other real-world effects. This was a request for more immersion. It would have to be understandable that some people who scale graphics down might not get them; but it's moreso eye candy for those who can afford it.

[Orion Pirate]

And my immersion in the game would be hurt if I found I was sitting in a cockpit with armored windows that had scratches and and bird poop on it. I would never put myself in a 60 foot, 100 ton machine, or 30 foot 20 ton for that matter that had an actual cockpit that the only thing between me and the other guy is some stuff I can see through.

I know that the original mechs had glass canopies etc, but most of them were unseen. I also can understand piloting a 300 hundred year old mech with glass canopy, but we are not are we? It seems to be this is the peak, the Renascence time for mechs. I expect what I am playing with is new, shiny and has much better protection for a brutal world. Windows add a certain cool factor to a mech, the Mad Cat just looks exceptional. It feels gritty and old school. But it just is so much glass, and the weapons are just so devastating... I guess that is why head shots are so critical in the rules, those windows don't like getting poked.

But whatever, there are mechs with windows, and in the future that window must be as strong as any other part of the mech, so why not, I give up you win. For those mechs with windows, I hope that people get their raindrops and kicked up dirt etc... I am not worried about lens flares so much, I am sure the windows will be polarized.

*replace glass with whatever you feel that equates to something armored and see through.*

[GHQCommander]

Pass

It looks cool, sounds great etc. However even gamers with high spec machines will turn it off for a clear and less tiring view. Such effects causes a big drain our energy.

I think they should avoid spending too much time on such graphics. I would prefer as much time put into explosions.

However maybe glass cracking when highly damaged, maybe a bit of oil when your almost done for. But all positioned to the side of the screen or done faintly. The important thing there though is that it would only be on the screen in certain circumstances where weather is all the time.

[Aegis Kleais]

It's an MVP product. It will start off with less features, and gain more as time passes. The engine used is more than capable of it; we just have to sit back and see what PGI chooses to implement.

[GHQCommander]

Aegis Kleais, on 02 June 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

It's an MVP product. It will start off with less features, and gain more as time passes. The engine used is more than capable of it; we just have to sit back and see what PGI chooses to implement.

Very true. You will find yourself saying that a lot. What do gamers do more than talk like things will come quickly, nothing right? Some even get upset if their vision is not delivered instantly, but it does not work that way.

Some things must be added at a stage when feedback can be monitored and that is much later into the games release.

[Aegis Kleais]

GHQCommander, on 02 June 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Very true. You will find yourself saying that a lot. What do gamers do more than talk like things will come quickly, nothing right? Some even get upset if their vision is not delivered instantly, but it does not work that way.

Some things must be added at a stage when feedback can be monitored and that is much later into the games release.

If TF2 has taught me anything, it's that to release the game in staggered feature releases actually keeps anticipation levels high throughout the community. Patching will come, features will be tweaked, and people will eagerly await news of what the next patch has.

PGI can "do it up" to really promote large features and ensure the community stays as an integral part of the process by involving them through contests, promos, etc. Valve made TF2 into a cash cow, and I think PGI could do likewise (as long as we don't overdo it with content, something TF2 kind of went over and above with IMO)

[Judochop]

Orion Pirate, on 02 June 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

And my immersion in the game would be hurt if I found I was sitting in a cockpit with armored windows that had scratches and and bird poop on it. I would never put myself in a 60 foot, 100 ton machine, or 30 foot 20 ton for that matter that had an actual cockpit that the only thing between me and the other guy is some stuff I can see through.

I know that the original mechs had glass canopies etc, but most of them were unseen. I also can understand piloting a 300 hundred year old mech with glass canopy, but we are not are we? It seems to be this is the peak, the Renascence time for mechs. I expect what I am playing with is new, shiny and has much better protection for a brutal world. Windows add a certain cool factor to a mech, the Mad Cat just looks exceptional. It feels gritty and old school. But it just is so much glass, and the weapons are just so devastating... I guess that is why head shots are so critical in the rules, those windows don't like getting poked.

But whatever, there are mechs with windows, and in the future that window must be as strong as any other part of the mech, so why not, I give up you win. For those mechs with windows, I hope that people get their raindrops and kicked up dirt etc... I am not worried about lens flares so much, I am sure the windows will be polarized.

*replace glass with whatever you feel that equates to something armored and see through.*

This is a very strange post.


I would definitely like to see some weather effects and scratches. Probably some age on the actual cockpit components too. I used to work on F/A-18's like the one in that video. Not only is the cockpit plexiglass usually somewhat scratched up like in the video, but the panels that house the cockpit switches and displays often have paint chipped off or little imperfections in the finish if they're a bit old. It makes a cool effect at night because the lights under the panels bleed through where there isn't any paint.

[Orion Pirate]

Judochop, on 02 June 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

This is a very strange post.

What is strange? Words do not always convey a full meaning, so maybe I said something confusing?

But in the end, it appears there is no stable ground for this discussion, because realism is not something that is taken too seriously in the BT universe, as Aegis pointed out.

[Listless Nomad]

Orion Pirate, on 02 June 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

But in the end, it appears there is no stable ground for this discussion, because realism is not something that is taken too seriously in the BT universe, as Aegis pointed out.

That's part of the fun, being able to step into a future where 100 ton war machines are possible. Nowhere in a mech is safe lol. Say you put the pilot in the torso, instead of in a cockpit. A Gauss rifle round slams into the torso and crushes some armor. The armor isn't penetrated, but the pilot is now soup as he was crushed by metal and support components filling a nice tasty void.

Its an escapist universe

Edited by Listless Nomad, 02 June 2012 - 08:39 AM.

[Revage]

If my window can get scratchy, I want a cheap C-bill function to have my window polished so I don't look like a slob. And in the eventuality of scratchy-windows to enhance grittiness, I also want to collect mud and be able to have that washed off so you can tell the slob-pilots from the ones that take pride in their rig. Chrome would be phase three of where I'd like to see this go.

Or, going with Orion's post towards the start, since I thought that summarized it best; cameras with lenses that don't get scratched. In any event, I wouldn't want the scratches mandatory, because it'd also screw up how I've conceived their sensory system as working, too.

[Judochop]

Orion Pirate, on 02 June 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

What is strange? Words do not always convey a full meaning, so maybe I said something confusing?

But in the end, it appears there is no stable ground for this discussion, because realism is not something that is taken too seriously in the BT universe, as Aegis pointed out.

It's strange because you're talking about your immersion being ruined by little touches that serve to increase immersion. You aren't piloting purely through video screens like some sort of gundam; mechs in Battletech have windows. I know the fluff talks about "circle vision strips" and whatnot in the neurohelmet, but the fact is, in this game, you're sitting in a windowed cockpit. Why not have these ultimately inconsequential artistic touches that help bring you into the world? They could even be communicative. In MW3 a cockpit hit would crack your windscreen. It was a practical way to say, "hey guy, you just took a head hit!"

Revage, on 02 June 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Or, going with Orion's post towards the start, since I thought that summarized it best; cameras with lenses that don't get scratched. In any event, I wouldn't want the scratches mandatory, because it'd also screw up how I've conceived their sensory system as working, too.

I'd say make them optional if only for graphical reasons. Not every video card is created equal.

[Orion Pirate]

Judochop, on 02 June 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

It's strange because you're talking about your immersion being ruined by little touches that serve to increase immersion. You aren't piloting purely through video screens like some sort of gundam; mechs in Battletech have windows. I know the fluff talks about "circle vision strips" and whatnot in the neurohelmet, but the fact is, in this game, you're sitting in a windowed cockpit. Why not have these ultimately inconsequential artistic touches that help bring you into the world? They could even be communicative. In MW3 a cockpit hit would crack your windscreen. It was a practical way to say, "hey guy, you just took a head hit!"


I'd say make them optional if only for graphical reasons. Not every video card is created equal.

And that is where we differ. For my immersion I would NOT be piloting a mech with windows given the choice. That is why being in a mech with weather effects on windows would break MY immersion, it would just be too silly, I would have to suspend too much disbelief that I am actually in a giant war machine with windows. Maybe that explains it. Yes I understand that some mechs have windows. There are also some mechs that do not have windows as I understand, and those would be the mechs that I would pilot and make the most sense to my immersion experience.

But to be honest, it is not something I need for immersion, and not something I care about. We all have imagination for that right?

The only real reason I got into this discussion was because I figured windows with weather effects seemed way too ridiculous, even though there are mechs with windowed cockpits, I mostly just ignored that they were windowed and chalked it up to being either Unseen designs or artistic license.

I mean really, having windows, since my paint sprayer was too realistic, how about PPC blasts? How long would the pilot be blinded for if he was looking out his "window" and saw one hit his mech? Or laser dazzle to the eyes? If paint sprayers are too realistic and not cool, how about all mechs being equipped with laser dazzlers that blind pilots in mechs with windows?

Anyways, since realism is suspended in many areas of BT, your immersion and my immersion are different. It will be for many people.

[Creepy]

>Mechs with windows

That's always made me wonder. Most, if not all, battlemechs have "glass" (aluminum or carbon?) cockpits from my understanding? It's been -years- since I've played though, so don't quote me on this. The other thing is that all the cockpits are placed in the "head" -though I think in some arrangements, the neck is close enough to count as a "head." Go figure.

Even if a mech were to run on a camera, you'd still have water, sand, etc hitting it, or the clear protective covering over it...

Anyway, while weather effects would be nice, it could drain computer resources. Not to mention the time involved in programming these things... Mind you, if there were unlimited resources, it would be a pretty cool feature to have.

[Aegis Kleais]

I've always believed that the ability to make someone believe they're in a perfect simulation is by ensuring your world has believable imperfections. Few things are flawless in real life. Paint is chipped, metal is scratched, patterns have imperfections, etc. When you take the time to put those nuances into a game, it does breathe life into the simulation aspect for me.

[Revage]

It would be kind of neat, I have to admit.. but I'd want to be able to have the damn thing polished and cleaned at the end of the mission all the same.

[Orion Pirate]

Creepy, on 02 June 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

>Mechs with windows

That's always made me wonder. Most, if not all, battlemechs have "glass" (aluminum or carbon?) cockpits from my understanding? It's been -years- since I've played though, so don't quote me on this. The other thing is that all the cockpits are placed in the "head" -though I think in some arrangements, the neck is close enough to count as a "head." Go figure.

Even if a mech were to run on a camera, you'd still have water, sand, etc hitting it, or the clear protective covering over it...

Anyway, while weather effects would be nice, it could drain computer resources. Not to mention the time involved in programming these things... Mind you, if there were unlimited resources, it would be a pretty cool feature to have.

IF it were a sensor, and IF water droplets could get on the sensor, would it not stand to reason that the computer would simply edit the input and correct for errors from the water droplets? After all water on a glass surface creates a lens, so simply correct for the distortion of the image through that water droplet. Also, would it not stand to reason that there would be MANY sensors, and that the image would be compiled from all those inputs, removing any imperfections that would be on one sensor and not an other? I imagine MANY kinds of sensors are used to provide your display data, not just visual cameras, but I could be asking for too much.

And not all mechs have windows that I can see, not usable windows anyway.

I still say that if mechs really DID have windows for real, at some point the pilot would go blind from all the lasers and PPC shots out there without some kind of optical buffer...
I can't argue about wear and tear, eventually everything gets worn from use, but that is what maintenance is for...

Edited by Orion Pirate, 02 June 2012 - 05:04 PM.

[Revage]

http://en.wikipedia....nium_oxynitride

That seemed to fit here, and may have some relevance. Transparent aluminum. Just heard about it, not an engineering-savvy person.