11 replies to this topic

[Disguy]

The Opinion:
Currently there are two different kinds of Double Heat sinks. The natural engine heat sinks (internal) and those added by the player (external). They have two separate values. The internal is at 2 and the external are at 1.4.
I propose that they have a single value as this will be easier to understand and make sense to new players. The current setup punishes players who are building mechs with a smaller than 250 engine. A player who builds a mech with an engine greater than 250 receives no additional bonus. Those mechs that currently cannot support a 250 engine is being punished by this dual value system.
The Math:
With a 250 engine the player has 10 internal double heat sinks. 2 x 10 = 20.
With a 200 engine the player has 8 and 2 external. 2 x 8 = 16 + 1.4 x 2 = 18.8
A net loss of 3 criticals and 0.6 heat per 25 engine rating. This is a lesser build because it takes up more space but provides less efficiency. The current configuration forces players to build faster mechs.

Next I created some charts to help me determine what would be the best single value that would be in line with their current configuration. I compared the following possibilities and compared the absolute difference and the normal difference to the current configuration:

Current (2.0 Internal, 1.4 External):

• Swapped (1.4 Internal, 2.0 External): 33, 33
  
• Static (1.9 Both): 19.5, -1
  
• Static (1.8 Both) : 12, 0 (Closest to current)
  
• Static (1.7 Both): 16.5, 16.5
  
• Static (1.6 Both): 33, 33
  
• Single Heat Sink: 132, 132

I don’t know how these charts will appear but here it is. Heat Sinks 2 and 1.4 1.4 and 2.0 Difference(ABS) Difference Heat Sinks 2 and 1.4 1.90 Difference(ABS) Difference 1.00 10 20.00 14.00 6.00 6.00 1.00 10 20.00 19.00 1.00 1.00 2.00 11 21.40 16.00 5.40 5.40 2.00 11 21.40 20.90 0.50 0.50 3.00 12 22.80 18.00 4.80 4.80 3.00 12 22.80 22.80 0.00 0.00 4.00 13 24.20 20.00 4.20 4.20 4.00 13 24.20 24.70 0.50 -0.50 5.00 14 25.60 22.00 3.60 3.60 5.00 14 25.60 26.60 1.00 -1.00 6.00 15 27.00 24.00 3.00 3.00 6.00 15 27.00 28.50 1.50 -1.50 7.00 16 28.40 26.00 2.40 2.40 7.00 16 28.40 30.40 2.00 -2.00 8.00 17 29.80 28.00 1.80 1.80 8.00 17 29.80 32.30 2.50 -2.50 9.00 18 31.20 30.00 1.20 1.20 9.00 18 31.20 34.20 3.00 -3.00 10.00 19 32.60 32.00 0.60 0.60 10.00 19 32.60 36.10 3.50 -3.50 11.00 20 34.00 34.00 0.00 0.00 11.00 20 34.00 38.00 4.00 -4.00 33.00 33.00 19.50 -16.50 AVG Diff 3.00 3.00 AVG Diff 1.77 -1.50 Heat Sinks 2 and 1.4 1.80 Difference(ABS) Difference Heat Sinks 2 and 1.4 1.70 Difference(ABS) Difference 1.00 10 20.00 18.00 2.00 2.00 1.00 10 20.00 17.00 3.00 3.00 2.00 11 21.40 19.80 1.60 1.60 2.00 11 21.40 18.70 2.70 2.70 3.00 12 22.80 21.60 1.20 1.20 3.00 12 22.80 20.40 2.40 2.40 4.00 13 24.20 23.40 0.80 0.80 4.00 13 24.20 22.10 2.10 2.10 5.00 14 25.60 25.20 0.40 0.40 5.00 14 25.60 23.80 1.80 1.80 6.00 15 27.00 27.00 0.00 0.00 6.00 15 27.00 25.50 1.50 1.50 7.00 16 28.40 28.80 0.40 -0.40 7.00 16 28.40 27.20 1.20 1.20 8.00 17 29.80 30.60 0.80 -0.80 8.00 17 29.80 28.90 0.90 0.90 9.00 18 31.20 32.40 1.20 -1.20 9.00 18 31.20 30.60 0.60 0.60 10.00 19 32.60 34.20 1.60 -1.60 10.00 19 32.60 32.30 0.30 0.30 11.00 20 34.00 36.00 2.00 -2.00 11.00 20 34.00 34.00 0.00 0.00 12.00 0.00 16.50 16.50 AVG Diff 1.09 0.00 AVG Diff 1.50 1.50 Heat Sinks 2 and 1.4 1.60 Difference(ABS) Difference Heat Sinks 2 and 1.4 Single Difference(ABS) Difference 1.00 10 20.00 16.00 4.00 4.00 1.00 10 20.00 10.00 10.00 10.00 2.00 11 21.40 17.60 3.80 3.80 2.00 11 21.40 11.00 10.40 10.40 3.00 12 22.80 19.20 3.60 3.60 3.00 12 22.80 12.00 10.80 10.80 4.00 13 24.20 20.80 3.40 3.40 4.00 13 24.20 13.00 11.20 11.20 5.00 14 25.60 22.40 3.20 3.20 5.00 14 25.60 14.00 11.60 11.60 6.00 15 27.00 24.00 3.00 3.00 6.00 15 27.00 15.00 12.00 12.00 7.00 16 28.40 25.60 2.80 2.80 7.00 16 28.40 16.00 12.40 12.40 8.00 17 29.80 27.20 2.60 2.60 8.00 17 29.80 17.00 12.80 12.80 9.00 18 31.20 28.80 2.40 2.40 9.00 18 31.20 18.00 13.20 13.20 10.00 19 32.60 30.40 2.20 2.20 10.00 19 32.60 19.00 13.60 13.60 11.00 20 34.00 32.00 2.00 2.00 11.00 20 34.00 20.00 14.00 14.00 33.00 33.00 132.00 132.00 AVG Diff 3.00 3.00 AVG Diff 12.00 12.00

Ok the xl paste didn't go so good. anyone knows how I will post the data.

[General Taskeen]

Fix SHS first, then DHS.

Is it any wonder why Devs never put SHS on some of the made up custom variants they put into the game?

[Deathlike]

General Taskeen, on 13 April 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

Fix SHS first, then DHS.

Is it any wonder why Devs never put SHS on some of the made up custom variants they put into the game?

Outside of Bryan's "special" K2 (in his coolant post) and the A1 build in the community heavies "poll"... there are "exceptions" to the rule.

[General Taskeen]

Deathlike, on 13 April 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Outside of Bryan's "special" K2 (in his coolant post) and the A1 build in the community heavies "poll"... there are "exceptions" to the rule.

I am specifically talking about Hero Mechs, most of the new ones these days are stock DHS, because they know SHS are bad. And most meta maxed builds, that are gauss-less, don't use SHS. They balanced heat, SHS, and DHS incorrectly IMO.

I also already tested what a Stock K3 does in the game with DHS. Which is an enormous disparity compared to testing a stock K2, which a free first time player may or may not have to pilot depending on the flavor for the trail of tears for the month.



CPLT-K3

And I agree with the OP. After improving SHS, both SHS and DHS need to have a single value applied to them inside and outside the engine.

Edited by General Taskeen, 13 April 2013 - 07:36 PM.

[Sable Dove]

All engine heat sinks are equivalent to 2.0 DHS, regardless of type equipped.
External SHS=1.0
External DHS=2.0

Problem solved.

[Deathlike]

General Taskeen, on 13 April 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

I am specifically talking about Hero Mechs, most of the new ones these days are stock DHS, because they know SHS are bad. And most meta maxed builds, that are gauss-less, don't use SHS. They balanced heat, SHS, and DHS incorrectly IMO.

Quotes exist plus the obvious facepalm for not getting the joke.

[Disguy]

General Taskeen, on 13 April 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

Fix SHS first, then DHS.

Is it any wonder why Devs never put SHS on some of the made up custom variants they put into the game?

SHS work "fine". They are supposed to be obsolete at this point. However SHS have a HUGE advantage or DHS. They only take up one critical which is great on a mech with extra tonnage and crits. I can't wait for clan DHS which are two crits instead of 3!

[Durant Carlyle]

Sable Dove, on 13 April 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

All engine heat sinks are equivalent to 2.0 DHS, regardless of type equipped.
External SHS=1.0
External DHS=2.0

Problem solved.

That would be giving free doubles to everyone. Not cool at all.

Heat sink types cannot be mixed. They use different coolant, so are not compatible.

Singles need to be 1.0 and doubles need to be 2.0. Each 'Mech/variant should have its own set shutdown threshold (oooh, another Quirk to make variants different!), and heat sinks should only dissipate heat, not increase the threshold. Weapon cooldowns need to increase to lower the amount of heat generated over time. They shouldn't be 10 seconds or anything, but they need to be longer than they are now.

[General Taskeen]

Disguy, on 13 April 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

SHS work "fine". They are supposed to be obsolete at this point. However SHS have a HUGE advantage or DHS. They only take up one critical which is great on a mech with extra tonnage and crits. I can't wait for clan DHS which are two crits instead of 3!

No, they don't. I don't care, this is a game. People need to stop stating canon for SHS being bad and excusing PGI's bad balance of the heat system, SHS, and DHS. SHS being one crit is not even enough of an advantage.

[Neolisk]

Sable Dove, on 13 April 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

All engine heat sinks are equivalent to 2.0 DHS, regardless of type equipped.

Good point here. Doing an upgrade to DHS does not increase engine size right? So the type of heat sinks should be const. Either single or double. Could be double for XL and single for regular engines - you name it.

Durant Carlyle, on 14 April 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

Each 'Mech/variant should have its own set shutdown threshold (oooh, another Quirk to make variants different!) and heat sinks should only dissipate heat, not increase the threshold.

Yes. Larger mechs should natively have higher heat threshold. It makes no sense that 4 times more metal does not give you any benefit in heat dissipation.

[Zyllos]

You will never be able to mix DHS/SHS. It's part of the rules. Just like how the critical slots and tonnage are for weapons.

DHS, also, will never be 0.2 dissipation rates. This is because PGI would have to completely rebalance RoF-to-Heat numbers, and doing that is the only way SHS will be balanced with DHS.

DHS are meant to replace SHS. That is what Lvl 1 Tech vs. Lvl 2 Tech does. It's just the problem is exacerbated with the extremely high RoF of weapons. If RoF was lower across the board, SHS would not feel so much pressure for constantly firing like how a DHS build with the same weapon loadout can. That would make SHS mechs feel much more balanced compared with DHS.

If PGI doesn't want to decrease the RoF of weapons, they could easily do the exact same thing by increasing the SHS dissipation rates so that basic/trial mechs do not feel so much pressure.

Personally, from constantly reviewing my Excel spreadsheet data and comparing it with the MechWarrior Online MechLab data, this is what I would do with SHS/DHS:

SHS Dissipation > +0.02 (to 0.12)
SHS Capacity > +0.2 (to 1.2)

DHS Dissipation (all) > to 0.17
DHS Capacity (all) > to 1.7

This still makes DHS the go to heatsink in almost all normal situations, balances inside/outside DHS so that smaller engines do not get penalized (it actually nerfs all engines between 150 to 245 while buffs 100 to 145 engines), and allows mechs to overload tonnage on SHS to get better dissipation rates than DHS if they so wish.

This change will slightly lower the overall pace of the game since engines greater than 145 will have a bit smaller base dissipation rate over DHS, but stock/trial mechs will feel much less pressure with a bit higher dissipation/capacity rate.

Edited by Zyllos, 14 April 2013 - 07:21 AM.

[Disguy]

General Taskeen, on 14 April 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

No, they don't. I don't care, this is a game. People need to stop stating canon for SHS being bad and excusing PGI's bad balance of the heat system, SHS, and DHS. SHS being one crit is not even enough of an advantage.

Yes, they do. In Mechwarrior not everything is supposed to be balenced. Think about it in real world applications. If you were to make a simulation of something as boring as downloading files. The original tech would be a 56K modem and then progress to DSL and the eventually to Fiber. Are you telling me that all these technologies should be equal?

No, overtime things get better and new tech supercedes the old. sure you can still use a 56k modem to download a file but do you really want to?