211 replies to this topic

[Reptilizer]

Victor Morson, on 07 April 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Don't forget you need to equip BAP to get quick locks (which is vital to pierce ECM with LRMs; yes, BAP does not DIRECTLY impact ECM, but if you break ECM with a TAG, BAP lets you take advantage of that brief window very quickly), as well as to really mount your own TAG to reliably cut through ECM at range.

Plus, for maximum damage, you need to stay between 180m and 750m, so that you can keep your missiles guided on the way in / Artemis IV working (which requires LOS). Indirect shots are a joke even before the nerf.

That's a lot of complexity and tonnage and sub-system investment for something that tickles you. In particular since you could just take, say, an ER PPC or Gauss and put out reliable, longer range damage with no "hard counters" to it.

Listen to this man. Any build i run with direct damage weapons or sniper stuff if you want long range (ERPPC for the win) outperforms my missile builds by far. And i really LIKE my C1 2x15LRM build. So depressing to see how weak it is when compared to a K build or a splatcat even.

[El Bandito]

My C4 had at least 1:1 KDR since the missile nerf. So I dunno...

[Victor Morson]

Rhent, on 07 April 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

For the tonnage and critical space required, LRM's are arguably the absolute worst weapon in the game. PGI did a colossal screw up changing LRM damage from 1.8 to .7 and it shows. LRM's are so bad now that the team that has the least LRM's wins more matches. Yes, LRM's are that bad.

The depressing thing is with the other drawbacks, 1.8 was still so weak you could not justify bringing them to organized games. As people have said, I'd be much more willing to accept a small damage nerf if they also improve travel time, arc, etc. But even if they fixed those things, we need to get at least to 1.2 IMO and work from there, and only then if the travel speeds and accuracy are improved dramatically from what they were.

The only way I could justify using LRMs during the 1.8 damage period was on fast moving Cent Ds or Trebs, anything slower was too easy to just totally shut down with ECM and anything lighter is too light to make effective use.

[nephilimUK]

i rebought my A1 and do have fun sending pain rain, effectiveness is all down to which team and which map you get. have got near 600dmg in the last few days but also a few matches with *cough* 60 or so. Fewer ravens and the switch from DDC to poptart pinkies ensures less ECM.

as the biggest maps seem higher in the rotation it does suit lrm boating

the biggest BUT is that with the proliferation of snipers everyone seems to have forgotten the R key to mark targets as they are shooting LOS

the second biggest but is that the game has moved to long distance on the big maps sniping over the LRM range, by the time the pain rain drops the target is long gone

Edited by nephilimUK, 08 April 2013 - 12:52 AM.

[Mechrophilia]

I tried a couple of my missile mechs to see for myself. I now have to agree with most posters here... LRM's are not worth the tonnage at all right now, not even close. Moreover, the extra ammo needed only increases the bloated tonnage-to-damage ratio and increases your ammo-explosion liability, making them even less desirable.

[MN03]

LRMs are now much easier to use. Why? Because most people ignore them plus walk out in the open. I LOL everytime someone uses LRMs against me before I wtfpwn him with my ppc's. The damage is so low and they move so slow that a baby can avoid them by walking in a random direction. The only way you can do some decent damage if you use artemis+tag, stand close *and* the opponent is distracted by someone else.

Edited by MN03, 08 April 2013 - 01:16 AM.

[Lightfoot]

LRMs are hot-nerfed at the moment. There was an issue with splash damage hitting too much and the players all whined they were quitting and how could the devs allow this to continue, yadda-yadda so the devs nerfed LRMs till they could be fixxed. So LRMs are garbage at the moment, don't waste your time.

[G0SSY]

I think the biggest issue with them is the speed / tracking, the damage, going by my stats, each missile that hits does do about 1 damage with splash damage. So if you think about it, an LRM20 if it all hits, can do about the same damage as an AC/20, spread out. IMO it should do slightly more, maybe around 25-28 damage if a full barrage lands.

Trouble is landing them. At the moment they track a mech based on its current position, "Seeking" the target. This should be the default behaviour of LRMs.

However, if Artemis is equipped, rather than "tightening" the grouping, I reckon they should "Pursuit" their target, which means they would lead the target, aiming for where the Mech will be in the future. This lead time would be a function of the missiles flight speed and vector, and the targets Mech's current speed + vector.

This would do a few things, firstly, you could still confuse the missiles flight path by varying your speed a lot, but it would also mean that if you were travelling perpendicular to the missiles flight path consistently, the missiles should hit the target dead in the side, rather than missing and then chasing it, more often missing than hitting.

TAG is where it could get interesting, I reckon it should allow you to redetermine which component the missiles are targeting, as well as making the grouping tighter, but not improve the tracking.

NARC could be the killer weapon here, it could combine the effects of both TAG and Artemis, but be slightly weaker (less percentage tight grouping, pursuit is slightly laggier), as well as letting you target it without LOS. So if you had Artemis, TAG and NARC all targeting a mech, they would be royally ****ed.

[Rashhaverak]

LRMs are broke right now. A 15 pack should do at least 15 damage, but right now is doing less than 10, and that is spread around, so in actuality you are probably doing 3 or less to any individual component location.

I started the weekend in my founders cat, and in the first game I had a double AC/10 Jager walk up to me through 3 volleys of tag guided LRMs, blew both my ears off and cored me. His mech was barely touched and mine was trashed. He didn't have AMS and he didn't care. After that game I shelved the cat for the weekend. Switched to my Atlas, and was able to ignore any LRM flight like it didn't matter.

Edited by Rashhaverak, 08 April 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[Oni Ralas]

I can still kill with my LRM builds (because I'm the LRM whisperer...) but the ammo consumption rate is far to high due to the low damage output, and I'm having to break off targets far more than I'd lke. Situational awareness is still key for an LRM player, but it's hard right now.

They are on the very low spectrum for pugs.
They are non-existant in 8v8

Too bad

[Black Templar]

LRMs do good damage. the real problem seems to be their accuracy. i tend to fire my LRMs very careful since spamming them will make you miss a lot of shots. taking a look into my weapons stats i have a 20%-25% accuracy on all my LRM weapons. their spread is damn high and its acutally fine like this. they are a support weapon to soften up your targets. if you want to go for real damage equip them with artemis.

[MN03]

Quote

if you want to go for real damage equip them with artemis

Lol. But seriously, artemis does help, but you can't say they do "good" damage.

[Leslie Haywood]

I just came back last weekend after a 2 weeks break. I was shocked how ineffective LRMs are right now.

Example: my Cat C1 (I think so...) with 2 ALRM20 and 4 ML. Direct fire on a Jagermech coming straight towards me from about 800 m distance. He showed no behaviour of getting into cover - and hit after hit I understood why...

The CT was open after my last salvo (must be 3 to 4 salvoes, 120 to 160 missiles) but that was all. Not destroyed or heavily damaged. No fear. Just ignorance of 2 (!) ALRM20 direct line of sight and no cover between him and me.

I can understood that they had to do something about the lrm damage. But just reducing it to nothingness is not the right way.

[Kahoumono]

Same here, I had just started to level up my Trebs when the patch that made missles super strong then hot fix missle damage so I was clearly able to see the before and after. I had a Treb3C with LRM15, ER PPC, 2 MLas and TAG, a pretty balanced build. 25 matches pre-hotfix I was doing close to an average of 500dmg per round, 25 matches post? I couldn't break 250 on average. Compared the results with my Raven2X pre and post, both doing over 400dmg per round. Lets not even consider the damage I could do with a 3L. I think the only people having with success with LRMs are if there are no ECM mechs and they are firing more than 40 at a time. I honestly can't remember the last time I was killed by LRMs, anyone else?

I think LRMs need a slight boost while SRMs are good where they are at the moment.

[danust]

I still see them killing mechs. 300-500m range direct fire is a sweet spot. Usually some damage already. Not a main killer but a useful tool.

And no one ignores them like a few have posted here. Have yet to see anybody wade out into LRM fire like they just don't care. Still quite a few in use too. That is the ultimate test in this game. (Blah blah competitive play blah.)

They are a bit soft probably but no sympathy for over the hill rainmakers praying for gravy. Tag works too.

[Corwin Vickers]

Let me put it this way.

When I see a guy with LRMs on my team I want to punch him in the face.

When I see people saying that "LRMs are fine" on the forums I want to punch them in the face.

When I see a Cat A1 with LRM5s and LRM10s I want to kill him IRL.

[Blackadder]

The only use for LRM's now is if a player decides that he wants some long range support fire over short range in his mech. Basically , the same catagory as other weapons systems when you have left over tonnage in your build, and no more viable hardpoints for energy or ballistics. In almost every case where a player has available tonnage , SRM's will be better then LRM's by a huge margin, and thats because LRM's require to many secondary support systems for the damage they do as a primary weapon.

Anyone with even basic math skills, can basically figure out that LRM's are pointless. A weapons system that does 0.8 damage per 1.4-1.7 tons weight is a bad weapons system. The only time i consider LRMs is when i have 2-3 tons left over and decide if i want a LRM 5 or a SRM system in my mech. In almost every case the SRM is the better choice, even in sniper mechs.

[Zyllos]

I think we all can agree that LRMs are in a bad spot (and slightly SRMs). So I don't need to add anything there.

But ECM, BAP, TAG, and NARC all do need changes.

ECM (GECM technically) needs to not hide all friendlies within 180m. The point of GECM is to hide yourself so you can inflitrate or scout enemy mechs without being spotted or use GECM to sneak attack/flank enemies. GECM should never stop players from locking on to the mech if you can actually pick up the target with sensors. But the delay locking speed should still exist.

BAP should never counter ECM. But, all the nice things we take for granted, like maintaining lock after losing LoS for a few seconds and "Warning Incoming Missile" message should be given to those who have BAP equipped. It's a sensor upgrade, it should give you all the bells and whistles that we have now for basic sensors.

TAG should have it's ranged reduced and is uncounterable by GECM. Its a 450m laser, that is visible. It will give locks for anybody, LoS or not, and with great accuracy with LRMs. It should be dangerous for the TAG user to use it, but gives great benefits to team LRM users by making their LRMs "the angel of Death".

NARC should be the safe scout's choice. Hit the target, give non-LoS targeting to your team. It only gives a minor buff in accuracy but is counterable by GECM. That accuracy buff is totally negated by TAG, but is useful with Artemis IV (I believe it already currently does this). It should also have a chance to be removed by incoming damage on the location that was hit. But, beyond that, it should last forever.

[Denolven]

A friend of mine plays a Catapult with 4 ALRM15 and two medium lasers. So far in pretty much every game we played together, he was one of our top damage dealers with usually 300-400 damage (except for when he was r*ped by teamed lights in the first minute). So I guess he does something right.

I'm not saying LRMs are alright now, simply because I have no experience with them, am a newbie anyway, and have no idea what the LRMs are supposed to be in terms of game design. But from what I have seen, they probably still do something.

[MN03]

300-400 damage with LRM60 is not that much plus you sacrifice a lot of tonnage/space for this low amount of damage (32 ton + ~8 tons of ammo = 40 tons). And yes, you really need a minimum of 7-8 tons of ammo.

Edited by MN03, 08 April 2013 - 06:54 AM.