21 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Suggestion

AC/2 Stat Changes:
Change Heat from 1 per shot to 0.5 per shot.
Change Cooldown from 0.5 seconds to 1 second.

This will lower the AC/2 damage output, but also significantly reduce its heat production, making it one of the most heat-efficient Auto-Cannons in game. The lowered damage is compensated by the considerably lowered required investment in heat sinks and ammo to make the weapon run well, and for long range uses (and the AC/2s is the longest-range ballistic weapon in the game), it will cause little drawbacks, since mantaining the rate of fire and maintaining a good accuracy at range is difficult. At short ranges, the increased heat efficiency will allow the user to utilize it longer without running into heat issues - burst is lost, but the damage output is still high and can be maintained for much longer than before.

This overall should make the AC/2 better to handle and scale better with number of AC/2 (an important factor Jagermechs and other mechs with 3 or more ballistic slots), without at any point overpowering it.

Background

Currently, the game suffers from a low weight option for ballistic weapons, as the Machine Gun is mostly weak.
The next heaviest ballistic is the Auto-Cannon, and it has its own problems:
It's the lightest of the auto-cannons, but its high rate of fire means it produces the 2nd highest amount of damage among auto-cannons. (4 damage per second)
It produces the highest amount of heat (2 heat per second).

It has the highest range and the highest rate of fire. It's range would be ideal for a sniper weapon, but to actually deliver damage at that range, you will spend a lot more time aiming then the cooldown ratio would require - meaning it's quite ineffecient to use in that capacity.


Overall these features make the AC/2 rather difficult to use effectively on any mech. For light and medium mechs, it is often too heavy and they might need additional weight for ammo and heat sinks to make this weapon work for them.
For heavier mechs, it becomes quickly unattractive because of its heavier competitors that produce a lot less heat.


So what I suggest is a "nerfbuff". It nerfs certain aspects of the AC/2, but improves others, and I think will overall improve its "ergonomy".

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 27 March 2013 - 06:32 AM.

[HammerSwarm]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 March 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

So what I suggest is a "nerfbuff". It nerfs certain aspects of the AC/2, but improves others, and I think will overall improve its "ergonomy".

No. I don't like it. Let me tell you why.
The DPS is important as it makes the weapon viable. It should not be any lower than the AC5 at 2.94 DPS.. I use it so I like it at 4.0.

What I think we need is HSR for projectile weapons. I read in ask the devs 34 they're working on it but the physics are harder because of the travel time.

[Syllogy]

HSR for Ballistics and Missiles will be completed by May.

[MustrumRidcully]

HammerSwarm, on 27 March 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

No. I don't like it. Let me tell you why.
The DPS is important as it makes the weapon viable. It should not be any lower than the AC5 at 2.94 DPS.. I use it so I like it at 4.0.

What I think we need is HSR for projectile weapons. I read in ask the devs 34 they're working on it but the physics are harder because of the travel time.

I think the DPS of a weapon that will just overheat your mech all the time and will not eve land on target because it fires too fast is irrelevant.

[HammerSwarm]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 March 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

I think the DPS of a weapon that will just overheat your mech all the time and will not eve land on target because it fires too fast is irrelevant.

I've run 77 matches with the A/C2 and I hit with ~39% (10,968/4261) of my shots fired without HSR. Just because you can't hit your target don't assume I can't hit mine. I don't run my mechs with super high heat builds most are 1.1-1.4. You just have to know what the weapon is and what it isn't.

Edited by HammerSwarm, 27 March 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[Pinselborste]

if you overheat with ac2, maybe you should manage your heat better?

[WardenWolf]

I don't use the AC2 much myself, so I don't have a hugely vested opinion, but I am surprised that what was one of the lowest-damage weapons in every other incarnation of BattleTech / MechWarrior is suddenly a very high DPS (over time, of course, with no burst damage). I don't understand why it fires so fast, and I shudder to think of what an Ultra version will eventually do (though that is going to be a big balance issue for other ACs as well, especially the UAC20).

[MustrumRidcully]

HammerSwarm, on 27 March 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

I've run 77 matches with the A/C2 and I hit with ~39% (10,968/4261) of my shots fired without HSR. Just because you can't hit your target don't assume I can't hit mine. I don't run my mechs with super high heat builds most are 1.1-1.4. You just have to know what the weapon is and what it isn't.

Is there a typo in your post? 39 % hit rate with the AC/2?
I am not a particularly good shot (at least I don't believe I am), and with an AC/20, I have a hit rate of 62.54 %. With the AC/10 I am at 66%.

Think about how much heat and ammo you're wasting with your current hit rate! How little of your actual damage output you actually use! From the theoretical 4 DPS, you leave over 1.56. But you still get 100 % the heat.
Now think about how much better things could be if you had only 2 DPS, but also reach a hit rate of 60 %... That's 1.2 DPS, but at only 25 % the heat, meaning you can fire about 4 times as long as you can now.

Say, a 4 AC/2 mech with 20 DHS has a heat dissipation of 3.4 per second, but generates 8 heat per second, with a heat capacity of 64 and will overheat in about 13 seconds, dealing 13 * 4 * 2 = 104 damage, with your current accuracy, a total of about 40.56 damage.
With the change, you could run 5 AC/2 with 14 DHS (2.56 dissipation/sec; 55.6 heat capacity) and produce 2.5 heat. After 13 seconds, you're at 130 damage, leaving you with 50.7 with your current hit rate and with 78 with the hypothetical hit rate.

If you don't want to "boat" AC/2 - you can load up on additional other weapons simply because your weapon has become so more efficient and occupies less of your heat dissipation ability for itself.

[Pinselborste]

or instead of nerfing the weapon, you could just shoot when your have a chance to hit instead of holding down the button and wasting shots.

[LeKrisser]

The AC/2 is good for supression and engaging at long distance. It's normal you don't have an high hitrate.

And I would even prefer a higher fire rate then a lower with my 4XAC/2 Cataphract.

[DeadlyNerd]

So basically make an already useless weapon, due to server latency issues and low damage, and make it even more useless.
Egad, you really are that oblivious to what's happening in the game. Little less forum posting, little more playing? Make that a lot.

Quote

since mantaining the rate of fire and maintaining a good accuracy at range is difficult

That's why you don't keep firing your AC/2s. You're WASTING ammo.

Using external heatsinks to cool AC fire? The only heatsinks a full ballistics mech needs are the engine ones and if you can't manage heat with those, then you need to visit the player help forum.

Also, there's 2 sides to this suggestion.

Either you're annoyed by 6xAC/2 or 4xAC/2 JM6s, or you just fail at managing heat with only ballistics, which is pathetic really.
I guess it's the first one then.
So in order to nerf them, suggest a decrease in the rate of fire of the AC/2, effectively making it worse and offer a decrease in heat just so the suggestion looks reasonable to the simple minded crowd.
You do realize that halving the rate of fire you double the heat efficiency, right? There's no need for a heat nerf.

If you really want to suggest a subtle nerf then please make it a little more sublte and a little less obvious.

P.S. I know I made a reply to both sides of this suggestion. It's just to prove how ridiculous it actually is.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 27 March 2013 - 03:24 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

DeadlyNerd, on 27 March 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

So basically make an already useless weapon, due to server latency issues and low damage, and make it even more useless.
Egad, you really are that oblivious to what's happening in the game. Little less forum posting, little more playing? Make that a lot.

That's why you don't keep firing your AC/2s. You're WASTING ammo.
Using external heatsinks to cool AC fire? The only heatsinks a full ballistics mech needs are the engine ones and if you can't manage heat with those, then you need to visit the player help forum.

Also, there's 2 sides to this suggestion.

Either you're annoyed by 6xAC/2 or 4xAC/2 JM6s, or you just fail at managing heat with only ballistics, which is pathetic really.
I guess it's the first one then.
So in order to nerf them, suggest a decrease in the rate of fire of the AC/2, effectively making it worse and offer a decrease in heat just so the suggestion looks reasonable to the simple minded crowd.
You do realize that halving the rate of fire you double the heat efficiency, right? There's no need for a heat nerf.

If you really want to suggest a subtle nerf then please make it a little more sublte and a little less obvious.

P.S. I know I made a reply to both sides of this suggestion. It's just to prove how ridiculous it actually is.

I am not annoyed at 6 AC/2 or 4 AC/2 JM6s. I am not worried about them, because I know how ineffecient that weapon loadout is (though I admittedly I didn't realize how teribble accuracy with these mechs actually seems to be.

What annoys me a bit is that the lore describes the Jagermech as extremely heat efficient, but in MW:O, it can actually overheat in something like 6 or 7 seconds with its standard ladout. I find that bizarre and stupid. Sure, in those 6 seconds its ACs provide 48 damage, but they also add 24 heat.

I don't think we can have the weapon more heat efficient at 4 DPS. That would be broken because of the combination of high range and its weight. We can't change the weight (which I might otherwise tweak), because "stock".

So what is left is changing the rate of fire. In my experience so far, if you want to aim, you cannot really utilize high fire rates. That means that the theoretical DPS is likely never reached, and if it was, you'd likely not hit much - but produce a lot of heat.

So, my aproach is - lowering the DPS, but also considerably lower the HPS. That will alow people to use more AC/2s, and it will allow also using other weapons next to the AC/2.

For example, take the Gauss Rifle - it's the most heat efficient ballistic weapon in the game. Even if you had 4, you wouldn't need any double heat sinks at all to run it. But - you can add additional weapons to your Gauss Rifle that produce heat, and get overall more firepower, and can fully utilize DHS - even make your mech somewhat hot.

These changes put the AC/2 into a similar league here - you can actually equip multiple of them and install additional weapons, overall making your build more flexible without sacrificing firepower.

[BloodyDziq]

if there's anything I would like to be changed in AC2, it is how the mwo client communicates whit the server while shooting AC2.

Right now an info is send to the server when you fire, and the server sends back a info when cooldown is done so we can fire next round. Because of that, AC2 ROF is lower when you have higher ping.

Example:
with 150 ping, AC2 rate of fire is around 80-90, should be 120.
that is because after the cooldown is done the client waits 150 more milliseconds for the response from the server, making cooldown 0.65, not 0.5.


This is not a big problem with other higher cooldown weapons, but is not acceptable in AC2

[Zyllos]

Have to agree, with 73 games I have a 62.4% hit rating.

The AC/2 just needs the chain fire bug fixed and reduced heat per second to match that of the AC/5.

[Bobzilla]

The accuracy of any ballistics has nothing to do with its rate of fire. It's how your aiming it. If you take longer to aim you'll hit more, or if you increase your skill at aiming you'll hit more. If you slow the rate of fire, you are forced to take more time to aim, but you could just not hold the button down and take the time to aim. Of course if something is dead still you would want to hold the button down to take full advantage of its high rate of fire. You can't speed weapons up, but you can slow them down, so why change the weapon?

As for heat, it does have quite a bit, but, it's this way to balance its better range, travel speed, and high DPS for a weapon that only weights 6 tons and takes 1 slot. And it's only hot when compaired to other ballistics.

[MustrumRidcully]

Bobzilla, on 28 March 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

The accuracy of any ballistics has nothing to do with its rate of fire. It's how your aiming it. If you take longer to aim you'll hit more, or if you increase your skill at aiming you'll hit more. If you slow the rate of fire, you are forced to take more time to aim, but you could just not hold the button down and take the time to aim. Of course if something is dead still you would want to hold the button down to take full advantage of its high rate of fire. You can't speed weapons up, but you can slow them down, so why change the weapon?

As for heat, it does have quite a bit, but, it's this way to balance its better range, travel speed, and high DPS for a weapon that only weights 6 tons and takes 1 slot. And it's only hot when compaired to other ballistics.

But if you don't hold the button down, do you utilize the rate of fire and get the DPS the weapon has?

Obviously not.


I mean, you can get pin-point precision with an MG, if you just aim each shot - but that would make the weapon even more useless, right?

[DeadlyNerd]

You still don't get it. AC/2 is a weapon that is used for fun.

Also IF at all someone does use it, it's in numbers of 3+ due to the dakka it causes. Reducing the dakka, the gun would be rendered unfun and useless.

Sorry, but I'm not buying your story. It's still "nurf the AC/2 cuz ppl are boating it plx" to me.

Oh and please don't mention dps in MWO. Not that its not your run of the mill MMORPG, but because it's an alpha strike game where consistent damage means squat.

AC/2 was effective in BT cause the armor wasn't doubled. Here it's just pointless.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 28 March 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

DeadlyNerd, on 28 March 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

You still don't get it. AC/2 is a weapon that is used for fun.

Also IF at all someone does use it, it's in numbers of 3+ due to the dakka it causes. Reducing the dakka, the gun would be rendered unfun and useless.

Sorry, but I'm not buying your story. It's still "nurf the AC/2 cuz ppl are boating it plx" to me.

Oh and please don't mention dps in MWO. Not that its not your run of the mill MMORPG, but because it's an alpha strike game where consistent damage means squat.

AC/2 was effective in BT cause the armor wasn't doubled. Here it's just pointless.

Well, if you think that I am lying, I am not sure what I can do. You won't take my arguments at face value, obviously.

If I really believed that the suggestion would fly any better with PGI and their stock mech focus, I'd either lower the AC/2s weight to something like 3 tons (I'd have to do the math again) or increase its damage to 4 per shot (though with completely different rate of fire then now.) OR was it even 6? I can'T remember, it needed quite some buff, even in the table top it was not really worth its weight.


And regarding DPS - DPS can still be important. But it's IMO often impractical to look at the theoretical DPS over an infinte amount of time. More important is looking at short time frames - not quite "alpha" 0 second time frames, but 5 to 15 seconds at best.

In 5 seconds, an AC/2 can deal 12 damage (assuming you had o ping). A Gauss Rifle would have already dealt 30 in that time, because you can get in two shots with it in 5 seconds (1 at 0, another at 4 seconds for example). My "fix" won't really help the AC/2 on this front, obviously -but the point is making it more viable in conjunction with other weapons, instead of being the heat-load and ammo monster it is.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 29 March 2013 - 02:53 AM.

[Bobzilla]

MustrumRidcully, on 28 March 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

But if you don't hold the button down, do you utilize the rate of fire and get the DPS the weapon has?

Obviously not.


I mean, you can get pin-point precision with an MG, if you just aim each shot - but that would make the weapon even more useless, right?

My point is, why not have the option to fire slower or faster as appose to being forced to fire slower.

Your original post says "This will lower the AC/2 damage output..." just like not fireing as often. So really you want to do max dps for less heat, even if that max dps is lower. If you shut down alot, your still going to with your changes it will just take longer.

[General Taskeen]

OP, consider this.

Since, Heat is conversely affected by cool down. In order to have the incredible Dakka AA cannons of BT, you have to lower the damage too, heat, or both.

0.5 Damage
0.125 Cool Down
0.25 Heat

480 Rounds Per Minute. 4 Damage Per Second.

Which are more like the MW:LL Autocannon/2 and 5's. High Fire rate, lower damage and heat. However, more like 80% or more of heat per shot of an Autocannon in MW:LL is transferred to the barrel for a "jam" mechanic.

Edited by General Taskeen, 30 March 2013 - 04:33 AM.