43 replies to this topic

[Rofl]

I see a lot of posts discussing the pros and cons of weapons and equipment, and how to possibly fix them.

The biggest error I see is people talking about changing the weight of a given item, or to a lesser degree, the crit space.

This is not feasible It won't work for stock mechs for obvious reason. One could argue the stock variants are garbage, but it's what we use to base every other mech from.

It would potentially invalidate a great deal of builds out there, especially in terms of adding weight or crit space.

Crit space and tonnage are supposed to be the standards to which you balance the weapons.

If weapon A is perceived to be doing too much damage... why not lower the damage instead of increase the weight or space?

If a weapon is doing too little damage, then just increase the damage!

Weight and crits are an excellent system, set in place as they were in the BT universe to limit certain weapons in very specific ways with crits (no ac20s in the arms unless there's no lower actuators, no ac20s in the side torso if you're running an XL, no PPC in the CT, etc) and tonnage (ballistics were heavy because the heat per damage per range was low)

A perfect example is the ECM. It has been argued that it performs the role of at least 3 devices (ECM, NSS, Stealth Armor), therefore should have crits accordingly (increasings the crits required from 2 to 21... dang). However, this invalidates most of the stock ECM builds, requiring a rework in how stock mechs operate and deviating needlessly away from core BT.

I just realized you couldn't even force NSS and Steath armor crit locations on a mech because it would require 3 in each leg!

A common thread example I've seen is the flamer. People compare it to the ML since they are both 1 ton energy weapons. If the flamer is underperforming, then buff it! Making it lighter, however, just isn't the answer, since it would invalidate stock builds. It also sets it up to be compared to the small laser, which actually should share a similar profile to it, albeit without the secondary heat component.

Just my 2c in no particular order.

[Zyllos]

Lots of good information here, regarding balance.

Weight and Critical Slots are just set in stone. It has to be that way due to how the mech lab rules work.

But damage, heat, RoF, and ammo considerations (and heatsink) are what can be changed and balanced without hurting the stock builds.

[3rdworld]

I just fail to see the reason to worry about stock builds in a game predicated on using non-stock mechs.

would it really be a huge deal if a stock mech was a ton or 2 underweight?

just add in ammo for the weapon and we are pretty much square.

Edited by 3rdworld, 08 April 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[Barghest Whelp]

3rdworld, on 08 April 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

I just fail to see the reason to worry about stock builds in a game predicated on using non-stock mechs.

would it really be a huge deal if a stock mech was a ton or 2 underweight?

just add in ammo for the weapon and we are pretty much square.

Here's a thought. Why don't we just drop the BT tag and just call the game "huge stompy bots online"? Because once you start fiddling with tonnage and crit spaces of weapons, it's no longer BT. Not to me at least.

I mean, they've altered a lot of things from TT rules, which is ok'ish. But there are certain boundries which I feel should not be crossed. Altering tons and critspace of weapons is one of those boundaries for me at least.

[3rdworld]

Barghest Whelp, on 08 April 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Here's a thought. Why don't we just drop the BT tag and just call the game "huge stompy bots online"? Because once you start fiddling with tonnage and crit spaces of weapons, it's no longer BT. Not to me at least.

I mean, they've altered a lot of things from TT rules, which is ok'ish. But there are certain boundries which I feel should not be crossed. Altering tons and critspace of weapons is one of those boundaries for me at least.

It isn't for me. I care more about the game being balanced and fun than about some insignificant jive with a TT value.

Edited by 3rdworld, 08 April 2013 - 08:40 AM.

[AnnoyingCat]

everything is fine

[Kaldor]

3rdworld is right on in my mind.

Why does it matter if you reduce the weight on a weapon? I can see crit slots, but if you drop a ton or two light with a stock mech does it really effect the game?

Balance IS they ultimate goal IMHO.

[Rofl]

3rdworld, on 08 April 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

It isn't for me. I care more about the game being balanced and fun than about some insignificant jive with a TT value.

Balance is always the goal, but what exactly you are balancing should always be kept in mind. Take our poor, misgotten friend the LRM:

Due to a great many factors (flight distance and speed of missile being the greatest), the range of the LRM went from TT value of 630 meters to 1000 meters. Direct fire weapons had a similar compensation in going beyond their TT value ranges for a dropoff in damage. None of these affected their weight or crit.

Fire rates and heat were tuned, to numbers differing from TT but keeping with them the same feeling (IE PPCs did more damage and heat than lasers, the ER counterparts still shot further for more heat and same damage, AC-2 is still a decent long range peashooter). Lots of things have been tweaked, and none of it has required a complete reworking of any mech in their bay. I use that word required literally. I know there's stock variants that just plain suck.

[Tennex]

the crit system is horrible for balance.

since the armor buff internals are only 1/3 a mech's health.
how do you expect 1/3 of a mech's health to be a balancing factor for the whole match.

it only comes into play when the mech is essentially dead. cuz god knows everybody focuses the mech with 1/3 health.

and on top of how little gamplay impact it has. It is random.

Edited by Tennex, 08 April 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[3rdworld]

Rofl, on 08 April 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Balance is always the goal, but what exactly you are balancing should always be kept in mind. Take our poor, misgotten friend the LRM:

Due to a great many factors (flight distance and speed of missile being the greatest), the range of the LRM went from TT value of 630 meters to 1000 meters. Direct fire weapons had a similar compensation in going beyond their TT value ranges for a dropoff in damage. None of these affected their weight or crit.

Fire rates and heat were tuned, to numbers differing from TT but keeping with them the same feeling (IE PPCs did more damage and heat than lasers, the ER counterparts still shot further for more heat and same damage, AC-2 is still a decent long range peashooter). Lots of things have been tweaked, and none of it has required a complete reworking of any mech in their bay. I use that word required literally. I know there's stock variants that just plain suck.

I don't disagree with you.

But how will you ever make the AC/2 useful @ 6 tons? you can't, it is too heavy for a backup weapon and doesn't do enough damage to be a primary weapon. If it weighted 3 tons? Then your spiders and cicada's might use it. Mechs not focusing on ballistics might carry it for a dps boost in a tight situation or long range harasser.

Oh and it is way to hot. it needs to make like .25 heat per shot.

[MaddMaxx]

If you leave the Bacon off of a BLT, can you still called it a BLT?

[3rdworld]

MaddMaxx, on 08 April 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

If you leave the Bacon off of a BLT, can you still called it a BLT?

No, but if I use turkey bacon it's still a BLT.

[NRP]

The biggest flaw I see is the assumption that weight and crit slots are "set in stone". Ridiculous. Nothing is "set in stone".

All I see are BT fundamentalists who insist on forcing everyone to play by the dogmatic rules of an antiquated TT game. Which is also ridiculous.

[FupDup]

I can see why some people wouldn't want crits/weight to be increased, but for some items like the Narc it really should be decreased. Narc might not be such garbage if it only took up 1-1.5 tons (the Clan version would still be lighter than whatever we set the IS Narc to, in this case 0.5-0.75 tons).

[DocBach]

NRP, on 08 April 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

The biggest flaw I see is the assumption that weight and crit slots are "set in stone". Ridiculous. Nothing is "set in stone".

All I see are BT fundamentalists who insist on forcing everyone to play by the dogmatic rules of an antiquated TT game. Which is also ridiculous.

yes, they are set in stone - this game like it or not is based on the "antiquated ridiculous rules" you seem to have little care for. If they switch them up, none of the stock 'Mechs in this game work.

[Roadbeer]

3rdworld, on 08 April 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

No, but if I use turkey bacon it's still a BLT.

NO, it isn't.... it's a pale shade of a BLT

[NRP]

Who cares about stock mechs? Especially in a game built upon customization? You TT diehards make me laugh. You're like those people who are stuck in a past decade and just won't let go.

[DocBach]

You know what makes me laugh? Free to play players with no care for the IP who will move on to the next big release explaining how a game that is a virtual representation of a system they say they don't like telling players how things should be.

[LackofCertainty]

3rdworld, on 08 April 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

I don't disagree with you.

But how will you ever make the AC/2 useful @ 6 tons? you can't, it is too heavy for a backup weapon and doesn't do enough damage to be a primary weapon. If it weighted 3 tons? Then your spiders and cicada's might use it. Mechs not focusing on ballistics might carry it for a dps boost in a tight situation or long range harasser.

Oh and it is way to hot. it needs to make like .25 heat per shot.

How about instead of making it 3 tons, we keep it at 6 tons and increase the rate of fire and decrease heat slightly? Then we have a balanced weapon that doesn't bork every stock mech that comes with an AC2.

FupDup, on 08 April 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

I can see why some people wouldn't want crits/weight to be increased, but for some items like the Narc it really should be decreased. Narc might not be such garbage if it only took up 1-1.5 tons (the Clan version would still be lighter than whatever we set the IS Narc to, in this case 0.5-0.75 tons).

Or instead they could buff Narc's effects so that it has a much bigger effect on cluster size than TAG.


TL;DR
You have tons of options for balance without adjusting weight or crit slots. If you don't understand that, you're too dense to be making balance suggestions anyway.

[MaddMaxx]

3rdworld, on 08 April 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

No, but if I use turkey bacon it's still a BLT.

Turkey Bacon? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Good One. How are those Pigs Eggs?