63 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

I have the same issues with the whole 'crit-seeker' attempt to balance weapon usefulness as I have with ECM. It's not a balanced concept - it's designed to only work in concert with something else. Then you've got the light mechs with ballistics that are for all intensive purposes just nerfed down.

Just make MGs do damage like SLs do (like TT but rebalanced for MWO with ROF) but with the high ROF making them essentially do 'damage over time' to offset their complete lack of heat generation. Not that SLs generate enough heat to be significant anyway. This would essentially be like the little Spider having 4 Small Lasers and 1 possibly bigger one - right on target for balancing. Just in ballistics so it feels like a different model (which is how the rest of the variants tend to work anyway at the end of the day).

The current system doesn't work. I think that's pretty clear. Because of the hardpoints smaller mechs with ballistics have no need for 'crit-seekers'.

I get the desire to try and create a sort of rock paper scissors weapons balance. Clearly the desire is there. It doesn't really work though. Too many mechs, too much player control over mech design and too little control over team makeup. Attempting to do RPS balancing does nothing but shaft pugs.

You want to create role options do it with ECM/BAP/stealth armor/TAG/modules and the like. Balance weapons as weapons.

[Hedonism Robot]

SirLANsalot, on 08 April 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

MG's are not meant to be used alone, nor are they supposed to be OP guns like back in the days of earlier MW games. The AC2 is the anti mech MG that people are looking for in the MG. For lights, sets of 4 or more MGs will do damage but it takes time, thats where like on the SDR-5K you take a LL and the MG's and crit enemy mechs into submission.

I leveled up my 5k and I can tell you this was terrible. You basically have to land 7-10 consecutive hits with the large laser to strip the armor off then the MGs blow the components up. The time it takes to do all this my target has already killed a friendly mech and totally ignored me. They then have 1-2 less weapons, but even 2 remaining weapons is enough to brush me aside. Most 5k spiders do around 100 damage a game and I am fairly certian 99% of that is the one large laser.

[Belorion]

I wouldn't mind seeing a slight dps buff. Maybe .4 to .5 this would make two of them eq. to a small laser, or 4 of them eq. to two small lasers. Nothing to right home about, but something that does noticeable damage.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Hedonism Robot, on 08 April 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

I leveled up my 5k and I can tell you this was terrible. You basically have to land 7-10 consecutive hits with the large laser to strip the armor off then the MGs blow the components up. The time it takes to do all this my target has already killed a friendly mech and totally ignored me. They then have 1-2 less weapons, but even 2 remaining weapons is enough to brush me aside. Most 5k spiders do around 100 damage a game and I am fairly certian 99% of that is the one large laser.

Someone in ATD said PGI should take a 5K and level it up to full Elite and tell us MG's are fine afterwards. I think that's a damn good idea.

Instead of a thread like this. Someone should start a petition to force Garth to do that.

[stjobe]

Hedonism Robot, on 08 April 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

Most 5k spiders do around 100 damage a game and I am fairly certian 99% of that is the one large laser.

According to my stats, my 4 MGs were responsible for 16% of my 5K's damage output. 581 damage from the MGs and a total damage of 3,581 (yes, it actually did line up that nicely):

Edited by stjobe, 08 April 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[Davers]

stjobe, on 08 April 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

It's utterly mindboggling that they can say with a straight face that the MG is working as intended, or that they're happy with where it is right now.

The only explanation I can think of is that nobody at PGI has ever dropped with MGs. Ever. It only takes half a match to see how completely pathetic the MGs are.

And it's not like the SDR-5K or RVN-4X can just slap in something else. The CDA-3C might be able to do it, but not the lights.
A single AC/2 might fit, but not much of anything else.

What is weird is that PGI DOES do drops with machine guns. Ever listen to their streams? They sound like everyone else (they complain when they get River City Night for example). How can they think they are any good? It's like they are playing a different game than the rest of us.

[Deathlike]

SDR-5K

That's the best I could do with a Spider-5K with an AC2. Should easily disappoint.

[Pinselborste]

Belorion, on 08 April 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

I wouldn't mind seeing a slight dps buff. Maybe .4 to .5 this would make two of them eq. to a small laser, or 4 of them eq. to two small lasers. Nothing to right home about, but something that does noticeable damage.

they would Need equal damage, not just 50 %.

[Royalewithcheese]

Davers, on 08 April 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

What is weird is that PGI DOES do drops with machine guns. Ever listen to their streams? They sound like everyone else (they complain when they get River City Night for example). How can they think they are any good? It's like they are playing a different game than the rest of us.

This is really bizarre to me, too. Are they aware that a competitive scene exists and what weapons and builds ppl run in it? Because that seems like it would be somewhat relevant for someone trying to design Community Warfare or balance the game.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Royalewithcheese, on 08 April 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

This is really bizarre to me, too. Are they aware that a competitive scene exists and what weapons and builds ppl run in it? Because that seems like it would be somewhat relevant for someone trying to design Community Warfare or balance the game.

lol, you're kidding right?

[FrostCollar]

Deathlike, on 08 April 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

But seriously... I want to know the answer to the question. Is the AC2 popular enough for anything serious on a light mech?

No. The trouble with the AC-2 is that to realize its full DPS, the mech using it must keep firing at the enemy mech and keep the aim on a specific part. You can fire your MLs or MPLs at an enemy and use the cooldown to move around and dodge and have your effective DPS unaffected. Not so with the AC-2 (or the MG at that rate). This 100% uptime requirement is a major disadvantage when you don't have the armor necessary to take a hit.

Beyond that, it's so heavy for what it does that any light mech that wants to use it has to sacrifice quite a bit. I've tried it on light builds and seen it on a handful of others. In no case have I found the AC-2 to pull its weight on a light.

[BrkDncr]

the answer is obvious. Make a non-canon ballistic weapon. The NC Minigun is exactly like the Machine gun, but actually does damage to mechs. Swap all MGs and MG ammo with NCMiniguns and NCMinigun ammo across the board, and remove the MG from the game.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

BrkDncr, on 08 April 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

the answer is obvious. Make a non-canon ballistic weapon. The NC Minigun is exactly like the Machine gun, but actually does damage to mechs. Swap all MGs and MG ammo with NCMiniguns and NCMinigun ammo across the board, and remove the MG from the game.

Why bother with all that? Just make the MG do the same thing as your new NCMinigun and you don't have to bother making a whole new item.

[Duncan Longwood]

SDR-5K

This is the AC2 build I use on my spider. I haven't played it much since stat tracking. All games have been pug drops on Conquest so I was capping solo on some matches. Kills include Jenner and Raven duel at cap points in separate matches.

11 games
9W/2L
9Kills/3Deaths
2182 dmg
1Hour playtime

[Deathlike]

FrostCollar, on 08 April 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

No. The trouble with the AC-2 is that to realize its full DPS, the mech using it must keep firing at the enemy mech and keep the aim on a specific part. You can fire your MLs or MPLs at an enemy and use the cooldown to move around and dodge and have your effective DPS unaffected. Not so with the AC-2 (or the MG at that rate). This 100% uptime requirement is a major disadvantage when you don't have the armor necessary to take a hit.

Beyond that, it's so heavy for what it does that any light mech that wants to use it has to sacrifice quite a bit. I've tried it on light builds and seen it on a handful of others. In no case have I found the AC-2 to pull its weight on a light.

I thought a little about this, and I've seen people try to snipe with the AC2 (well, usually with more than 1). Even the occasional ERPPC spider is far more threatening than the one with the AC2.

It is actually more worthwhile to use a UAC5 on a light mech (did that with a Raven-4X with OK results) than it is for an AC2 I believe...

[Avimimus]

FrostCollar, on 08 April 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

No. The trouble with the AC-2 is that to realize its full DPS, the mech using it must keep firing at the enemy mech and keep the aim on a specific part. You can fire your MLs or MPLs at an enemy and use the cooldown to move around and dodge and have your effective DPS unaffected. Not so with the AC-2 (or the MG at that rate). This 100% uptime requirement is a major disadvantage when you don't have the armor necessary to take a hit.

Beyond that, it's so heavy for what it does that any light mech that wants to use it has to sacrifice quite a bit. I've tried it on light builds and seen it on a handful of others. In no case have I found the AC-2 to pull its weight on a light.

If this is a problem then a burst fire mode (with a cool down) would work well. Have machine guns do higher DPS for a few seconds and then pause while the barrel cools down (or the guns reload or something).

[Tennex]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 April 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

What makes you think they will fix MG's after all the crap we've gone through for ECM?

Unless you can get the entire forums to explode, PGI doesn't listen.

even if u get the forums to explode. pgi doesn't listen

they think they are all powerful at balancing online games from all the experience they've had in multiplayer games. as well as the work they did on duke nukkem multiplayer.

Edited by Tennex, 08 April 2013 - 03:31 PM.

[General Taskeen]

Countless threads and idea's on MG's, Flamers, LB-X, and NARC and still no command chair update for a "weapon pass re-feature/buff/etc" or future intentions to update them. And there are great, well thought out idea's, just like in various ECM threads.

PGI really must take balancing aspects of the game more seriously before the game is 'launched.'

Edited by General Taskeen, 08 April 2013 - 03:37 PM.

[A2rael]

i agree that the MG should do damage on par with the light laser. yes they generate no heat but that is balanced by the fact that you have to load ammo and ammo does have a tendency to detonate. why have a weapon that needs to be fired all the time to do very little. now that being said i think that i have made a couple kills with MG's running them in banks of 4 and getting lucky but thats about it. i realize that they aren't intended to be the be all end all of mech to mech combat but i would be nice for them to have a use beyond the cool sound effect which turns to an annoying constant assault of noise after a very short period of time.

[Deathlike]

SDR-5K

That's the best I could do with an AC5. Using a UAC5 would reduce ammo options and tonnage... both of which would make the build tougher than it should be.