21 replies to this topic

[Bad Karma 308]

http://www.tomshardw...-cpu,21911.html

"The Haswell processor family is the [Tick] part of Intel's "tick tock" design process in which it launches a new processor design in one year, and then shrinks it to a smaller process size in the following year. Haswell offers design tweaks made to the Ivy Bridge architecture, which is essentially a process-shrunk revision of Sandy Bridge. New features introduced in Haswell include HNI instruction set architecture extensions, a high-performance L4 cache layer, models with a 10 W TDP and more."
______________________________________________________

Update:

Intel Haswell box pricing revealed

http://www.fudzilla....ricing-revealed


Ranging from US $175 to $327

In case you missed it, Intel is gearing up for the launch of its 4th generation Core Haswell CPUs scheduled for early-June, most likely in the wake of the biggest June event, the Computex 2013.

The site published a table showing all the US ex. tax prices for retail box versions for the entire lineup ranging from the Core i7-4770K top end part down to the Core i5-4430. According to eariler information, pricing should be quite similar to what we had a chance to see back when Ivy Bridge was launched so we should not see any surprises there.

Edited by Bad Karma 308, 23 April 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

If I'm buying a new motherboard I'm waiting for DDR4 support because the difference between a high end Haswell i7 and my fx8320 isn't going to be sufficiently large to justify buying two motherboards.

[Bad Karma 308]

Three Haswell CPUs to Ship With BGA Socket & HD5200 GPU

http://www.tomshardw...cket,21917.html

"Last year we first heard that Intel might be planning do stop using the LGA (Land Grid Array) socket in favor of a BGA (Ball Grid Array) socket. While we won't be seeing all-BGA CPU's with the Haswell release, it appears that Intel is shipping three CPUs in the Haswell lineup that will have a BGA socket.

For those of you that aren't aware of it yet, a BGA socket isn't exactly a socket. A BGA socket means that the CPU is soldered to the motherboard, and thus not removable or replaceable"

[Vxheous]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 08 April 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

If I'm buying a new motherboard I'm waiting for DDR4 support because the difference between a high end Haswell i7 and my fx8320 isn't going to be sufficiently large to justify buying two motherboards.

Your fx 8320 doesn't even compare to current Sandybridge/Ivybridge processors in terms of performance, nevermind Haswell....fx 8320 averages 15-20 fps less in most games compared i5 3570K.

[Catamount]

Vxheous, on 09 April 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

Your fx 8320 doesn't even compare to current Sandybridge/Ivybridge processors in terms of performance, nevermind Haswell....fx 8320 averages 15-20 fps less in most games compared i5 3570K.

I'll be the first to praise IB (other than the IHS problem) but where exactly are you getting this data?

Past a point, the CPU isn't that meaningful in most gaming, period, much less when comparing the 8320 to it's Intel price-counterpart, the 3330. Haswell also isn't much faster than IB, so NM is right in saying that CPU differences would be minimal, especially since anything that will take proper advantage of an i7 will take advantage of the 8 cores of a Bulldozer chip, in which case the differences become even smaller (the 8350 is nearly a wash with the 3770k in multi-threaded apps, and the 8320 isn't terribly slower).

In MWO, it make a smallish difference, but MWO is also an extreme outlier for CPU-dependence.

[Bad Karma 308]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 08 April 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

If I'm buying a new motherboard I'm waiting for DDR4 support because the difference between a high end Haswell i7 and my fx8320 isn't going to be sufficiently large to justify buying two motherboards.

If I remember correctly, I think I saw Crucial had a DDR4 machine being demonstrated at CES this year. However, most people in the business are not expecting to see DDR4 out until last quarter of this year or 1st quarter of next. To top that off, you'll need to remember that new DDR specs usually have a hefty overlap in terms of speed with it's previous spec. DDR3 arrived at 1066 while some DDR2 were already at 1200. Even with the extra bandwidth DDR3 offered, it still took DDR3 6-8 months just to surpass DDR2 and having much higher latencies. Plus, it was far pricier to boot. So unless you had really deep pockets, making the jump to DDR3 wasn't really a good move until almost a year after it came out.

As far as comparing Intel vs AMD CPUs it really is an apples-to-oranges comparison. Each lithography has its own benchmarks that it excels with. So what most review sites tend to do is run them over several different sets of benchmarks and then average the score so that you can get an "all around average" placement amongst its peers. And to attest to this, AMD's best 8350, tends to place along side Intel's I5-3770s and the much older I7-970. So it roughly places in the middle, of Intel's 2nd of 5 CPU tiers. - Budget/mainstream/Enthusiast/Xeon/Itanium. But again, most CPUs do have "favorite" individual benchmarks that they excel on. For a good "general overall" reference: http://cpuboss.com/c...ormance-4311159

So unless you are building a machine around a single game or application, and nothing else, then your best bet is to always grab as much CPU power as you can. That being said, You also have to take into consideration future upgrade ability into your designs. At this point both Sandy & Ivy bridge are dead men walking as are both 1155 and 2011 sockets. And the rumor is that Ivy Bridge-E may not be released at this point in favor of a Haswell-E design. So you'd be foolish to buy one unless you are in a "must-have right now" situation.

And as I've mentioned before, AMD isn't in very good shape either. They're hemorrhaging cash and selling off both intellectual and physical properties just to make payroll. Many of their top executives and engineers have already jumped ship, and the company is actually looking at being sold off or even broken up and then sold. Currently they are shopping around for potential buyers. So If you are looking at an AMD system then you also need to ask yourself the upgrade ability question, ie...are they even going to be there next year when you want a new CPU?.

So it is an odd place to be in as a system builder right now.

Edited by Bad Karma 308, 09 April 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Vxheous, on 09 April 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

Your fx 8320 doesn't even compare to current Sandybridge/Ivybridge processors in terms of performance, nevermind Haswell....fx 8320 averages 15-20 fps less in most games compared i5 3570K.

I do some basic CAD work, photoshop, and such on mine so an i5 is inferior for the important work I do and the FX8320 build was $200 less than an i7 build with comparable power. Not everyone only uses their computer exclusively for gaming after all.

[DCLXVI]

Bad Karma 308, on 09 April 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

For those of you that aren't aware of it yet, a BGA socket isn't exactly a socket. A BGA socket means that the CPU is soldered to the motherboard, and thus not removable or replaceable"

the pc console yay

[Bad Karma 308]

Bad Karma 308, on 09 April 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

If I remember correctly, I think I saw Crucial had a DDR4 machine being demonstrated at CES this year. However, most people in the business are not expecting to see DDR4 out until last quarter of this year or 1st quarter of next. ......................

Damn it, I'm now having to quote myself...... here is a news update on DDR4
______________________________________________________________
Haswell-E supports DDR4

Written by Fuad Abazovic
http://www.fudzilla....e-supports-ddr4

4-channel memory

"Even before Ivy Bridge-E hits the market, Intel is busy working on a successor to this ultra high end processor simply codenamed Haswell E. Ivy Bridge-E is on schedule to launch in Q3 2013, using the same LGA 2011 socket, existing X79 chipset as well as four channel DDR3 1866 support."

There have been some rumors that Intel even considered cancelling this chipset in favor of speeding up the launch of Haswell-E, the next generation high end enthusiast chip, but so far that hasn’t been announced to partners.

Haswell-E has support for upcoming DDR4 memory as well four channel memory, promising much more bandwidth compared to the previous generation. It comes with up to 12 or 16 cores and should deliver tons of computing power.

Looking at the server side of things, four channel DDR4 memory and 12 to 16 cores will make a great chip for high end servers and sitting at 130W. It won't save a lot of trees in the Amazon, but it will offer a lot of compute power. At current schedule Haswell-E should show up in later part of 2014, in case Intel doesn’t change its mind and speed up the introduction of this new enthusiast core.

E is supposed to have DDR4 IMC, but DDR4 is still quite far from being finalized and mass produced. "
________________________________________________________________________


So this makes things even more interesting.................................

Edited by Bad Karma 308, 12 April 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Vxheous]

Catamount, on 09 April 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

I'll be the first to praise IB (other than the IHS problem) but where exactly are you getting this data?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6396/the-vishera-review-amd-fx8350-fx8320-fx6300-and-fx4300-tested/5

I'd say Anandtech is considered a reputable site for benchmarks, and the i5 clearly outpaces the fx 8320 by a good 10-30 fps

Narcissistic Martyr, on 09 April 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

I do some basic CAD work, photoshop, and such on mine so an i5 is inferior for the important work I do and the FX8320 build was $200 less than an i7 build with comparable power. Not everyone only uses their computer exclusively for gaming after all.

Same article as above, page 4, again shows the i5 in non-gaming work stay on par with the fx 8320. Microcenter also sells the i7 3770K @ $229 USD. Not to mention that all the benchmarks were taken at stock speeds. i5/i7 "K" processor easily hits 4.4Ghz with very little effort. AMD has failed in the CPU market these past 3 years, and they have even admitted that they are no longer able to remain competitive in terms of processing power, so have opted to put more more low-mid end processors.

[Catamount]

Vxheous, on 13 April 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6396/the-vishera-review-amd-fx8350-fx8320-fx6300-and-fx4300-tested/5

I'd say Anandtech is considered a reputable site for benchmarks, and the i5 clearly outpaces the fx 8320 by a good 10-30 fps

And those gaming tests are designed to bring out CPU differences. Those titles are CPU-bound, mostly DX9, and are being played at low resolutions. That is hardly typical of a gaming situation.

Obviously if you're playing Starcraft 2, you're going to be CPU-bound; that game is horribly coded and very CPU-dependent. Likewise, obviously if you play Skyrim at such low settings and resolution, and the difference is between 200fps and 230fps (hardly a meaningful difference one you reach those framerates), then yes, CPU differences will emerge, because they're making them emerge where they otherwise wouldn't. Skyrim is also single-threaded, so again, these tests are chosen to show what they show.

I would still probably pick in i5 for gaming (keeping in mind that games could go octathreaded like a lot of other software at any point), but the differences are not as meaningful, in real-world gaming situations, as Anand shows:

http://www.xbitlabs....00_6.html#sect0

(look at the 1080P numbers)

Quote

Same article as above, page 4, again shows the i5 in non-gaming work stay on par with the fx 8320. Microcenter also sells the i7 3770K @ $229 USD. Not to mention that all the benchmarks were taken at stock speeds. i5/i7 "K" processor easily hits 4.4Ghz with very little effort. AMD has failed in the CPU market these past 3 years, and they have even admitted that they are no longer able to remain competitive in terms of processing power, so have opted to put more more low-mid end processors.

First off, the 3470 in those tests is priced to the 8350, not the 8320, and secondly, Anand's results are outliers, as is often the case with Anand (I'll be doing a writeup on that topic, specifically, later).

Other tests of Vishera do not agree with your link.

http://www.tomshardw...iew,3328-8.html

http://www.xbitlabs....00_7.html#sect0

In the TH tests, Vishera tends to win more than lose, especially in multi-threaded applications. In the Xbit Labs tests, it trades blows with IB i5s, scoring big points in the very 3D rendering done by the user you're arguing with, which means that you're wrong when you imply that his CPU is necessarily inferior at that task; his CPU might actually be notably superior in that capacity.


Here's Guru3D's take:

http://www.guru3d.co...r_review,1.html

This includes neither the 8320 nor IB i5s, which is why I'm mentioning it separately, but as general show of what Vishera can do, the 8350 hands the i5-2500k its own rear end on a platter many times in those tests. The 3570k is not that much faster than the 2500k, and while the 8350 is being used, again, instead of the 8320, that's no more lopsided a comparison than Anand's comparison of the 8320 to the 3470.

Either way, we see that the situation with Vishera is not nearly as black and white as you paint it to be, and at $175, the 8320 is cheaper than all but the lowest-end i5s. It's even cheaper than the i5-3330. I think the problem here is that you're going by Anandtech, which, as I said, has begun to display a strange pattern of inconsistency in their reviews with those of other sites, often with results that don't even make sense (in one review of liquid coolers, they had high-end Corsair coolers outperformed by smaller, lower end coolers, again, wildly inconsistent with other reviews). That's why, for the moment, I don't look at them for reviews if I can help it. I can't figure out what kind of systematic problem would trouble reviews on topics as far and wide as CPUs and water coolers, but Anand has been showing some strange results lately


More to the point, none of this shows any evidence that Haswell CPUs would be enough of an upgrade to warrant the money over an 8320, which is what that user was noting originally in the first place. Even if it was 30% faster on average, which would be a stretch, that's not the kind of night-and-day difference that would typically justify buying a whole new CPU and motherboard.

Edited by Catamount, 13 April 2013 - 07:23 AM.

[Vxheous]

Microcenter sells the fx 8350 at $179, the 3570K at $189, and 3770K at $229. At that price, why would you pass up on an Intel especially with the overclock potential of the K. I do tend to like Hilbert's articles a lot more than Anand's. I also have an account at guru3d, same name as this one.

Edit: I'm actually quite interested in seeing the performance comparisons of an overclocked FX 8320, FX 8350, i5 3570K, i7 3770K, all at 4.7ghz.

Edited by Vxheous, 13 April 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[Catamount]

Vxheous, on 13 April 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Microcenter sells the fx 8350 at $179, the 3570K at $189, and 3770K at $229.

shut the front door

IF I had a Microcenter near me, I'd be all over that. Sadly, there are only so many in the US

It's not worth the drive from Boone, NC to Atlanta, GA unless I was going to really clean up there :/


But yeah, Anand's reviews are strange because they're very qualified to write them, and I can't identify immediately apparently methodological problems, yet they just get strange results (though I don't know how widespread it is; I'm going to look into that later)

[ApolloKaras]

Vxheous, on 13 April 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6396/the-vishera-review-amd-fx8350-fx8320-fx6300-and-fx4300-tested/5

I'd say Anandtech is considered a reputable site for benchmarks, and the i5 clearly outpaces the fx 8320 by a good 10-30 fps



Same article as above, page 4, again shows the i5 in non-gaming work stay on par with the fx 8320. Microcenter also sells the i7 3770K @ $229 USD. Not to mention that all the benchmarks were taken at stock speeds. i5/i7 "K" processor easily hits 4.4Ghz with very little effort. AMD has failed in the CPU market these past 3 years, and they have even admitted that they are no longer able to remain competitive in terms of processing power, so have opted to put more more low-mid end processors.

I would go as far as to say that Anandtech is really the only place. I removed Tomshardware off the list a long time ago. I go to Overclock3d (TimeToLiveCustoms), HardOCP, Guru3d, and Xbitlabs on occasion.

The biggest issue I have with the FX-8350, is not the FPS numbers, it does fine in heavy threaded work loads for the price. I just dont like the amount of power they consume... 125w... thats a lot of heat to dissipate. If not for that I would more than likely recommend it to more clients.

As far as Haswell, if you have a Sandy or Ivy Bridge, you might want to wait . There were some "Preview" numbers from Tom's, but its hard to judge a new upcoming line by an Engineering Sample.

Edited by Saxie, 13 April 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[Vxheous]

Tom's actually has some decent charts for comparisons.

[Bad Karma 308]

Intel Haswell box pricing revealed

http://www.fudzilla....ricing-revealed


Ranging from US $175 to $327

In case you missed it, Intel is gearing up for the launch of its 4th generation Core Haswell CPUs scheduled for early-June, most likely in the wake of the biggest June event, the Computex 2013.

The site published a table showing all the US ex. tax prices for retail box versions for the entire lineup ranging from the Core i7-4770K top end part down to the Core i5-4430. According to eariler information, pricing should be quite similar to what we had a chance to see back when Ivy Bridge was launched so we should not see any surprises there.



Read on.....http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/31172-intel-haswell-lineup-box-pricing-revealed

[ArmageddonKnight]

Pricing looks ok thankfully.

Personaly i also hope that Nvidia release their 700 series GPU's around the same time. Currently their are 2 theories/rumers/ leaked dates floating about.

1 states a release as early as may (probably june though) and that the 780 is a GK110 chip ..a wattered down Titan, which just so happens to have a project codename of Titan LE. A 760ti and 770 will also be rleased with GK104 that should be around %10% faster than the 60 0series equivalnets.

The other states that the 700 seires is not going to be a refresh, its simply going to be Maxwell which means a 2014 release, and that to tide us over there will be a GTX Titan LE (wattered down Titan) released around june/july.

TBH which ever the case, what ever the best new GPU relase is around june/july so long as it isnt as insanely expensive as the GTX Titan (~£800) ill be buying one for myself to replace my struglling 560ti, aswell as building a new rig for my old man using Intel Haswell 4770k + a 760ti or a 660ti.

Really wish computer hardware manfactuers were competative like they used to be, all this holding back and delays is killing the performance and making us pay insane prices.

[Vellinious]

I sure hope they fix the TIM...if they go with the paste like they did with the ivy bridge, there's gonna be a lotta pissed off people. Myself included....

[Bad Karma 308]

ArmageddonKnight, on 23 April 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Pricing looks ok thankfully.

Personaly i also hope that Nvidia release their 700 series GPU's around the same time. Currently their are 2 theories/rumers/ leaked dates floating about.

1 states a release as early as may (probably june though) and that the 780 is a GK110 chip ..a wattered down Titan, which just so happens to have a project codename of Titan LE. A 760ti and 770 will also be rleased with GK104 that should be around %10% faster than the 60 0series equivalnets.

The other states that the 700 seires is not going to be a refresh, its simply going to be Maxwell which means a 2014 release, and that to tide us over there will be a GTX Titan LE (wattered down Titan) released around june/july.

TBH which ever the case, what ever the best new GPU relase is around june/july so long as it isnt as insanely expensive as the GTX Titan (~£800) ill be buying one for myself to replace my struglling 560ti, aswell as building a new rig for my old man using Intel Haswell 4770k + a 760ti or a 660ti.

Really wish computer hardware manfactuers were competative like they used to be, all this holding back and delays is killing the performance and making us pay insane prices.

Geforce Gtx 780, 770 Coming In May

http://www.fudzilla....0-coming-in-may

Edited by Bad Karma 308, 23 April 2013 - 09:17 PM.

[Treckin]

I hope everyone is aware that fudzilla is one of the least reputable sources in tech news? The equivalent of a tabloid? Ive been following the market for only 20 years...