124 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Mystere, on 10 April 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

The key word is "most". Let the "competitive" players have their Solaris and other tournaments governed by "balanced" rule sets (which I myself will also join). But in addition, especially in the context of Community Warfare, I want to "fight a guerilla war against an unbalanced enemy". That is also one of the reasons why I am waiting for the arrival of the Clans.

Even the clans are balanced by their storyline requiring self imposed weight/unit limits; They have their superior tech countered by superior numbers, for the sake of balance. They are a quality vs quantity army.

StalaggtIKE, on 10 April 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

Perhaps from our questions, in AtD36, we can get some answers and hopefully results regarding the currently gimped IW meta game.

"Working as intended"

Edited by DocBach, 10 April 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[Xune]

bump

[Mystere]

DocBach, on 10 April 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

even the clans were balanced by self imposed weight/unit limits. They have their superior tech countered by superior numbers, for the sake of balance. They are quality vs quantity.

Given that we still do not have details on the Clans and everything that will come with them in MWO, I still have my hopes up.

[Cycleboy]

Mystere, on 10 April 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Given that we still do not have details on the Clans and everything that will come with them in MWO, I still have my hopes up.

Don't get your hopes up. They need to get 12man up and running so that they can implement 12 I.S. vs. 8 Clan battles to approximate the normal rules of 150% effectiveness from the TT, novels, etc.

[DocBach]

How fun do you think a game of 12 OminMechs with Clan technology vs 12 Inner Sphere 'Mechs with no limitation on the Clans will be for the average player, not including yourself?

[Mystere]

Cycleboy, on 10 April 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Don't get your hopes up. They need to get 12man up and running so that they can implement 12 I.S. vs. 8 Clan battles to approximate the normal rules of 150% effectiveness from the TT, novels, etc.

DocBach, on 10 April 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

How fun do you think a game of 12 OminMechs with Clan technology vs 12 Inner Sphere 'Mechs with no limitation on the Clans will be for the average player, not including yourself?

I am anticipating BT canon to be followed. As such, that will either be 5 Clan vs. 8 IS, or 10 Clan vs 12 IS (i.e. 1/2 stars vs 2/3 lances). Will that be enough "balance"? I can't say without much more information.

[DocBach]

Without getting too off topic from ECM revisions, I think a great balancing factor for the Clans would be higher honor points the less a force brings to a Battle in community warfare. Clan players would be rewarded for fighting with a numerical handicap to offset their superior equipment.

[HlynkaCG]

I voted other because, to be honest, I think that ECM is fine as is.

That said, I agree with the OP's general idea and many of his suggestions. Here is what I'd like to see...

• The addition of fourth class of hardpoint. These hardpoints would be used to mount support equipment such as BAP and ECM as well as Quasi-Weapons such as AMS, TAG, and NARC. I would give each existing mech at least 1 such hardpoint but restrict multiples to the canonical EW Mechs and Command variants.
  
• Make BAP powerful. I would have BAP add an additional "Active" sensor mode that would reveal all mechs within your sensor range regardless of LOS. The drawback would be that while in active mode the enemy can also target you regardless of LOS. ECM and BAP would essentially nullify each other.
  
• I would give TAG infinite range, or close to it, and make it's mass 0.5 tonnes as it was in closed beta.
  
• I would implement NARC exactly as the OP suggests.
  
• I would buff AMS to the point that shooting anything less than a LRM 20 at a mech with AMS, or a mech standing next to a mech with AMS, is an exercise in futility.
  
• Command Console would add additional module slots to a mech, allowing it to carry things like Cap Accelerator and Advanced Sensor Range in addition to a full load of consumables

The Idea being not to nerf ECM so much as buff the other systems to the point where there is a legitimate reason for a mech with limited equipment hardpoints to choose BAP, AMS, or some other system over ECM. The Atlas D-DC or Raven 3L's ability to carry multiple support systems is the thing that would differentiate them from the pack.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 10 April 2013 - 05:54 PM.

[DocBach]

I would love to see all tertiary equipment get specific hardpoint slots that they share. Some like the Raven who have a distinct role of carrying specialized equipment would have more slots than others. Moving TAG to the equipment slot would allow support 'Mechs to carry secondary weapons, and moving Narc to the equipment slot would put an end to people using a Narc beacon hardpoint to load another missile rack that launches twenty missiles out of a single port!

[Prezimonto]

I recently learned that there is a battle tech electronic packages called the Null Signature something or other.... It essentially does what ECM does by hiding missile locks. It was heat intensive to run the thing.

If ECM ate up a large chunk of your heat threshold it would be a lot less acceptable to run it constantly while in a melee for most of the ECM capable mechs. Consequently, if you then add the ability to turn it off along with any number of other really GOOD ideas floating around the forums ECM would be much more palatable and much less of a complete imbalancing factor for so many chassis and variants.

[DocBach]

The changes to ECM I suggested weren't my own - they're taken straight from Tactical Operations, which is the expanded advanced ruleset for Battletech. In its basic form, ECM strictly counters Beagle, Narc, C3, and Artemis; in the expanded rules, ECM shrouded sensor probing so sensors couldn't detect chassis type, damage, or weapons. ECM did interfere with sensor locks, but only if the spotter was within the ECM bubble, and 'Mechs had other sensor modes to still lock on to enemies with. The Ghost Target mode was also included which provided a +1 to hit modifier to a target protected by ECM. The explanation was Ghost Target mode confused sensors with so much false data that it was hard for it to differentiate real from fake targets.

Null Signature System, and Stealth Armor make it much harder for 'Mechs to be detected by sensors, and added crazy modifiers for 'Mechs to shoot at them simulating the difficulty 'Mech targeting computers had locating and tracking targets protected by them. You are correct in that both systems generated a ton of heat each turn they were active, and both required several critical slots in each location of the 'Mech. ECM currently does some of this function, with absolutely no drawbacks.

Lastly, by preventing streaks to lock on against 'Mechs protected by an ECM bubble is a feature of Angel ECM -- however, Streak missiles can still fire unguided as standard streaks, which they cannot do in MechWarrior Online. In a way, our Guardian ECM is a little more powerful then Angel for that reason.

Angel ECM and Null Signature system are all considered experimental equipment, in the universe they were never fielded in any large numbers (in fact, Null Signature system was considered extinct in the Inner Sphere, nobody knew how to recreate it after the Succession Wars), and were never legal for competitive play in tournaments or events.

[CutterWolf]

Voted other. The simple fix for ECM is this, "add in the ability to manually target any Mech." i.e. place you cross hair on a Mech and hit the "Q" key or whatever key you assign it too and it will mark that target. Said target would then remain "marked/spoted" and appear on your team mates radar until you or who ever marked/spoted the target loses LOS. This would then put ECM in line with TT rules for spotting & tracking and let weapon systems like LRMs & SSRMs the ability to lock on just as if they were not running ECM Again full filling TT rules. This is something that would be very easy for the Dev's to do and would not require the amount of coding your suggesting in your post.

I can live with your BAP suggestions but I would add in that when your BAP is on/active that missile lock times should be decreased when trying to lock on to a target using BAP since now it would be creating a huge radar signature thus making it easier to lock on too.

Narc stay on forever or until its destroy is a non-starter. One light Mech could come in and tag your whole team and for the entire match you would know where they all were. This would kill team play out right.

Edited by CutterWolf, 10 April 2013 - 09:19 PM.

[DocBach]

Most of the other MechWarriors had the ability to target 'Mechs under the reticule. If I'm reading your suggestion correct you'd make ECM protected 'Mechs detectable, but only to the "target 'Mech under reticule" key will lock them if you are pointing at them, hitting R doesn't work? I could definitely live with that. It'd get rid of the complete radar immunity, actually make camouflage and paint schemes a relevant part of stealth as you want to avoid being seen as being seen means you can be targeted by someone with a keen eye.

I can't take credit for the suggestions I posted for ECM; I pretty much found all the rules for the item in the various rule books and translated it straight into text. Specifically interesting to me is the Ghost Target mode. Yes, it would take a bit of coding to work in the game, but its ability to provide deception through false information is a factor of Information Warfare that we don't have, and could give the pillar much more depth and complexity. It also keeps a bit of anti-missile protection, but provides a small debuff rather than a complete counter.

The suggestion for Narc lasting forever was stolen straight from the Battletech rules; it is suppose to last until the entire section is destroyed, but to me that made no sense - if the Narc hit a 'Mech's armor, and all the armor got stripped from that location, did it burrow into the structure, or something? ECM still would protect you from Narc, though, and with Narc's limited range the scout would be placing himself in quite a bit of harms way to do so.

Edited by DocBach, 10 April 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[CutterWolf]

DocBach, on 10 April 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

Most of the other MechWarriors had the ability to target 'Mechs under the reticule. If I'm reading your suggestion correct you'd make ECM protected 'Mechs detectable, but only to the "target 'Mech under reticule" key will lock them if you are pointing at them, hitting R doesn't work? I could definitely live with that. It'd get rid of the complete radar immunity, actually make camouflage and paint schemes a relevant part of stealth as you want to avoid being seen as being seen means you can be targeted by someone with a keen eye.

I can't take credit for the suggestions I posted for ECM; I pretty much found all the rules for the item in the various rule books and translated it straight into text. Specifically interesting to me is the Ghost Target mode. Yes, it would take a bit of coding to work in the game, but its ability to provide deception through false information is a factor of Information Warfare that we don't have, and could give the pillar much more depth and complexity. It also keeps a bit of anti-missile protection, but provides a small debuff rather than a complete counter.

The suggestion for Narc lasting forever was stolen straight from the Battletech rules; it is suppose to last until the entire section is destroyed, but to me that made no sense - if the Narc hit a 'Mech's armor, and all the armor got stripped from that location, did it burrow into the structure, or something? ECM still would protect you from Narc, though, and with Narc's limited range the scout would be placing himself in quite a bit of harms way to do so.

Yep, your reading my suggestion correctly. Once you "marked/spotted" a target it would only put the red arrow over them and not display any info on the Mech(s) under an ECM bubble. A Mech(s) "marked/spotted" not under an ECM bubble would also only display the red arrow marker and not display any info on the Mech until it was within range any friendly units radar. This would enhance the currant radar modules and BAP making them all worth taking with out having the Dev's completely rip apart ECM. From all their posts it is very clear they like ECM as is so this suggestion lets them leave it as is but gives us the one bit a game balance we all know it needs. ("Target Marking")

The Narc thing, trust me when I say that in good competitive team play I have seen scouts that can pull that off.

If the Dev's only took this one idea of "Target Marking" from this thread as the one thing they could live with just think of the huge step forward it would be? ECM would still be good but you would not see all the QQing about it any more............

Edited by CutterWolf, 11 April 2013 - 05:41 AM.

[DocBach]

I really like the target over reticule idea. I'm wondering why they haven't put it in yet. I remember patch notes from a couple months back changing so the R button targets enemies close to the reticule, but there still isn't any that targets exactly what you are aiming at.

Its a little bit of a disadvantage as now you have to actually visually locate your targets as regular sensors can just hit R if they think they see something, but it makes you have to utilize cover and concealment as you approach a whole lot more effectively if you want to use ECM for stealth. It helps with stealth, but its on the pilot to remain uncompromised. I like it a lot.

[CutterWolf]

DocBach, on 11 April 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

I really like the target over reticule idea. I'm wondering why they haven't put it in yet. I remember patch notes from a couple months back changing so the R button targets enemies close to the reticule, but there still isn't any that targets exactly what you are aiming at.

Its a little bit of a disadvantage as now you have to actually visually locate your targets as regular sensors can just hit R if they think they see something, but it makes you have to utilize cover and concealment as you approach a whole lot more effectively if you want to use ECM for stealth. It helps with stealth, but its on the pilot to remain uncompromised. I like it a lot.

Yep, its something that would not break ECM since all the ECM Mech needs to do is to break LOS to go back under full ECM protection. This is how ECM should work, its the human input factor that's missing from the game. We as pilots should be able to over ride our own targeting systems since ECM disrupts that system making it to where it can no longer ID enemy targets "without human input". Since we can see the target with our own eyes we can then force the system to target a contact it knows is there but can not ID as friend or foe.

Edited by CutterWolf, 11 April 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[DocBach]

I also like that it takes attention to detail and situational awareness to get the locks, which was a proponent that many people say you needed to counter ECM - it combines that but allows people who play as a support class to still be able to contribute to the fight without the requirement of tertiary equipment or strange one-two combos of PPC's.

I believe a straight lock out system for anything is a poorly designed system; being hindered, sure. Being completely countered? Bad. Being required to carry tons of skill based equipment to counter something that weighs much less that is passive? Really bad.

[Volthorne]

DocBach, on 10 April 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

Without getting too off topic from ECM revisions, I think a great balancing factor for the Clans would be higher honor points the less a force brings to a Battle in community warfare. Clan players would be rewarded for fighting with a numerical handicap to offset their superior equipment.

WARNING, OFF-TOPIC: The Clans are all about 1v1 and alpha-stirkes, yeh? Just give their weapons double the recycle time of IS weapons. Boom, balanced. In addition, you could also make Alpha-Strikes in general take an additional 50% longer to recycle due to (magickus handwavium about the BattleMech's computer being overloaded and slowing down temporarily). Boom, alpha-heavy builds balanced.

/Off-topic.

Edited by Volthorne, 11 April 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[DocBach]

Speaking of clan tech, what if pgi couldnt figure a way to balance the clan streaks or lrms and Ecm might be their way to counter them?

[Volthorne]

DocBach, on 11 April 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

Speaking of clan tech, what if pgi couldnt figure a way to balance the clan streaks or lrms and Ecm might be their way to counter them?

A good deal of Clan 'Mechs have ECM, so yeah....