337 replies to this topic

[brock0]

They have no room to tinker, because if they screw something up, the people who are paying to play this game (whoops, paying to play this beta) will get annoyed and leave.

[Tennex]

brock0, on 10 April 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

They have no room to tinker, because if they screw something up, the people who are paying to play this game (whoops, paying to play this beta) will get annoyed and leave.

no they screw stuff up with bugs. the tinkering has never actually screwed anything up. the PPC changes that took months to come. the simple heat reduction. did not screw anything up.

it took many many months for them to finally change it.

[Texas Merc]

brock0, on 10 April 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

They have no room to tinker, because if they screw something up, the people who are paying to play this game (whoops, paying to play this beta) will get annoyed and leave.

You mean all the people who bought into last weekends sales and then realized that the bugs introduced with the same patch made the game unplayable or just outright unfun for quite a few users?

[Kristov Kerensky]

You guys are FUNNY!

No tactical depth to MWO and yet you complain about certain weapons that have very specific usages that are only seen when you use them tactically being no good?

CoD is a great game, lots of fun, and Roland, nothing wrong with my reflexes, I still play FPS games all the time and I'm damned good in them. I play them to KEEP my reflexes good and I found BF2 to be excellent for that, kept my FPS skills AND my driving AND my piloting skills all up at once..along with tactical and strategic when I went Commander, so..what was your comment aimed at again? Console Kiddies refers to the MINDSET, 'give it NOW NOW NOW!' 'HE PWND ME, THAT WEAPON IS OP!' 'I CANT KILL WITH MY PINKIE, FIX THAT NOW!'...THAT is what makes them console kiddies.

This game isn't even half completed yet and you guys are complaining about balance when you don't even get how some of the things in the game work yet, even when PGI has repeatedly told you they work the way they work BY DESIGN, it's WAI, and this is exactly how you use it to best effect...MGs anyone? Broken, no use, buff them, buff them...PGI says..no, this is what we want them to do, they do it perfectly right now, this is how you use them, try them now this way...BROKEN, BUFF NOWZ! And you think this group can talk about balance?

[Tennex]

Kristov Kerensky, on 10 April 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

You guys are FUNNY!

No tactical depth to MWO and yet you complain about certain weapons that have very specific usages that are only seen when you use them tactically being no good?

6MGs core the atlas from back in 40 seconds. 6 light lasers core the atlas back in 12 seconds.

how exactly does MG have a tactical advantage over SL. By the time you fry 1 component with the MG. the enemy is already dead with the SL. and ALL of its components are gone.

its not a matter of tactics. MGs are no good. period.

Edited by Tennex, 10 April 2013 - 03:46 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Tennex, on 10 April 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

6MGs core the atlas from back in 40 seconds. 6 light lasers core the atlas back in 12 seconds.

how exactly does MG have a tactical advantage over SL. By the time you fry 1 component with the MG. the enemy is already dead with the SL. and ALL of its components are gone.

its not a matter of tactics. MGs are no good. period.

Yep, and 6 meds will do it even FASTER! 2 AC20s faster still! So why would you use anything BUT AC20s? That is where you are going there and that's not balance, that's whining. MGs are designed to do something specific, you can't even SEE what that is and your examples keep showing, even when it's been explained to you by PGI and people on these very forums how they are to be used.

And you really think you can tell us about balance...

[Tennex]

Kristov Kerensky, on 10 April 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

Yep, and 6 meds will do it even FASTER! 2 AC20s faster still! So why would you use anything BUT AC20s? That is where you are going there and that's not balance, that's whining. MGs are designed to do something specific, you can't even SEE what that is and your examples keep showing, even when it's been explained to you by PGI and people on these very forums how they are to be used.

And you really think you can tell us about balance...

your comparing MGs to AC20s now? first of all a light mech can't even mount an AC20 viably.

second. the MG and the small laser both weigh 0.5 tons. and is at least a decent comparison.

do you understand? with the 0.5 tons you can kill the damn mech. not get its components and then have it dies in 4x the time while its shooting back at you

Edited by Tennex, 10 April 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[Phoenix Gray]

BALANCE IS OP!1!! YOU GOTA NERF BALLANNCE ORi QUITE mWo 4EVVA1!!!!!

[Blackadder]

The fundamental issue is that PGI is still adding basic content to the game, and every time they add something it tends to screw up balance. back in closed beta, missiles were very powerful, and PPC's and most ballistic weapons except Gauss and UAC5 were pretty bad. SIngle heatsinks really limited the ability to use large energy weapons. The standard 4P build was 7 -9 SL and it would overheat pretty easy, but it was one of the most feared mechs in the game, because it went 92 KPH, and had an alpha stike of 27 points, coupled with the ability to mount 25 SHS, meaning it could string together 100 points of damage and run off.

Then open beta comes, DHS are put in , it changes the balance of the game. People figure out that DHS in the engine slot are 2.0 while others are 1.4. This revamps how mechs build out, and start making high heat weapons more attractive but not the king of the hill. Gauss rifle gets its HP nerfed to basically zero, making the ac20 a far more viable option, and making gauss more restrictive to use due to its ability to break easily. Artemis & tag put in game, Missles become the OP weapon due to trajectory problems, which were fixed shortly after introduction. however SRMS & LRMs become reasonably powerful, with SRMS being brutal. ECM enters game, LRM value drops drastically, SRMs become the go to close range weapon, non ecm mechs become 2nd class mechs due to ECM being very powerful, in the light and assault catagory. AMS is now redundant due to ECM.

So really what we see are issues of power creep due to things like DHS, constant cycling of "good" & "bad" weapons systems, and the failure to achieve any kind of stable balance in the game for the most part. Currently excluding Missiles, balance has finally gotten to be pretty good, but the power creep issue is creating a problem, because the current mech design focuses around high alpha strike damage that pinpoints single sections of a mech.

WIth the announcement that clan tech is coming, its going to completely screw everything up again, unless PGI throws out the "cannon" of BT and thats what they really should have done at the start of the design. Currently boating is a huge problem for game balance due to how hardpoints are set up, along with the latest equipment editions, and its reduced much of the game potential to simplistic levels in my opinion. PGI really needs to revamp mech hard points, including clan mechs to limit the extreme boating that is going on. Sadly, i do not see it happening, because of the min/max crowd, and the BT must be cannon crowd will probably prevent it.

[Teralitha]

Phoenix Gray, on 10 April 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

BALANCE IS OP!1!! YOU GOTA NERF BALLANNCE ORi QUITE mWo 4EVVA1!!!!!

Why would we want balance to be nerfed? Its needs to be buffed.

[Teralitha]

Blackadder, on 10 April 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

The fundamental issue is that PGI is still adding basic content to the game, and every time they add something it tends to screw up balance. back in closed beta, missiles were very powerful, and PPC's and most ballistic weapons except Gauss and UAC5 were pretty bad. SIngle heatsinks really limited the ability to use large energy weapons. The standard 4P build was 7 -9 SL and it would overheat pretty easy, but it was one of the most feared mechs in the game, because it went 92 KPH, and had an alpha stike of 27 points, coupled with the ability to mount 25 SHS, meaning it could string together 100 points of damage and run off.

Then open beta comes, DHS are put in , it changes the balance of the game. People figure out that DHS in the engine slot are 2.0 while others are 1.4. This revamps how mechs build out, and start making high heat weapons more attractive but not the king of the hill. Gauss rifle gets its HP nerfed to basically zero, making the ac20 a far more viable option, and making gauss more restrictive to use due to its ability to break easily. Artemis & tag put in game, Missles become the OP weapon due to trajectory problems, which were fixed shortly after introduction. however SRMS & LRMs become reasonably powerful, with SRMS being brutal. ECM enters game, LRM value drops drastically, SRMs become the go to close range weapon, non ecm mechs become 2nd class mechs due to ECM being very powerful, in the light and assault catagory. AMS is now redundant due to ECM.

So really what we see are issues of power creep due to things like DHS, constant cycling of "good" & "bad" weapons systems, and the failure to achieve any kind of stable balance in the game for the most part. Currently excluding Missiles, balance has finally gotten to be pretty good, but the power creep issue is creating a problem, because the current mech design focuses around high alpha strike damage that pinpoints single sections of a mech.

WIth the announcement that clan tech is coming, its going to completely screw everything up again, unless PGI throws out the "cannon" of BT and thats what they really should have done at the start of the design. Currently boating is a huge problem for game balance due to how hardpoints are set up, along with the latest equipment editions, and its reduced much of the game potential to simplistic levels in my opinion. PGI really needs to revamp mech hard points, including clan mechs to limit the extreme boating that is going on. Sadly, i do not see it happening, because of the min/max crowd, and the BT must be cannon crowd will probably prevent it.

Actually... take out double heat sinks, and the problem of balance is resolved.

[Haroldwolf]

There is a difference between mech/weapon balance and game balance. The game seems unbalanced because there is only one game play mode, do as much damage as possible to max your XP and C-Bills.

In many ways the game is one gigantic mechlab simulation.

[Helican]

Kristov Kerensky, on 10 April 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

You guys are FUNNY!

No tactical depth to MWO and yet you complain about certain weapons that have very specific usages that are only seen when you use them tactically being no good?

CoD is a great game, lots of fun, and Roland, nothing wrong with my reflexes, I still play FPS games all the time and I'm damned good in them. I play them to KEEP my reflexes good and I found BF2 to be excellent for that, kept my FPS skills AND my driving AND my piloting skills all up at once..along with tactical and strategic when I went Commander, so..what was your comment aimed at again? Console Kiddies refers to the MINDSET, 'give it NOW NOW NOW!' 'HE PWND ME, THAT WEAPON IS OP!' 'I CANT KILL WITH MY PINKIE, FIX THAT NOW!'...THAT is what makes them console kiddies.

This game isn't even half completed yet and you guys are complaining about balance when you don't even get how some of the things in the game work yet, even when PGI has repeatedly told you they work the way they work BY DESIGN, it's WAI, and this is exactly how you use it to best effect...MGs anyone? Broken, no use, buff them, buff them...PGI says..no, this is what we want them to do, they do it perfectly right now, this is how you use them, try them now this way...BROKEN, BUFF NOWZ! And you think this group can talk about balance?

Because never, in the history of any video game, has something "designed" been later found to be unbalanced or unworkable, Or maybe you already missed the part where they changed MGs once already?

[Yokaiko]

Teralitha, on 10 April 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Actually... take out double heat sinks, and the problem of balance is resolved.

You need to hand out whatever you are smoking.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Helican, on 10 April 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Because never, in the history of any video game, has something "designed" been later found to be unbalanced or unworkable, Or maybe you already missed the part where they changed MGs once already?

More then once actually so far, time before they actually made the MGs do DAMAGE..prior to that they just made noise, and the way they have them working now is how PGI wants them to work. They have a specific function and perform it as designed.

I don't LIKE the way they did MGs, but you know what, if you use them AS PGI designed them to be used, they do as advertised. Funny, people keep saying PGI needs to ignore BTech canon and lore and change how things work. So, they do exactly that and people complain that they didn't stick to canon and lore. Catch 22 anyone?

We have a very unfinished product we are beta testing, core features of game play aren't even IN yet, and people are already trying to judge it's balance and insist they know how to balance it.

Seriously....

[I am]

Well, they do kinda treat it like more than a beta. Could probably make a good argument it has been "soft launched". Thats a term warframe is using for their released beta with micro trans shop.

When you have lets say, 10 bugs, and then next patch adds, lets say 3 bugs and 5 new purchasable items, kinda shows a priority no?

If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, it might not be a beta?

Regardless of the title, it is what it is. A game with alot of bugs, smoe rendering it unplayable for certan parties. A game where you can buy alot of stuff. A game where you may or may not be able to log in based on there errors. A game with a commmunity that treats the word balance, like it is a dirty word. A game where new players are grouped up on, and treated like a source of entertainment for the teamed masses. Whether you call it beta or otherwise, really does not change these facts.

[Teralitha]

Yokaiko, on 10 April 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

You need to hand out whatever you are smoking.

here... have a dose of reality

[Shumabot]

Yokaiko, on 10 April 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

You need to hand out whatever you are smoking.

He's not actually very far off. This games systems aren't really designed around dubs being 100% ubiquitous. They're not designed around singles either though.

Heat scaling has no basis in this game and is totally ad hoc nonsense. Not that it matters when two thirds of the games guns wouldn't be good at any heat and three fourths of mech variants are mathematically inferior to the remaining fourth.

Part of the problem with this game is that its core mathematical basis, weapon scaling, weapon implementations maps, graphics, and game modes are all broken at the exact same time and are all based off of eachother when achieving balance. There is literally no solution to this games problems that don't involve a lot of major overhauls.

Edited by Shumabot, 10 April 2013 - 09:11 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Teralitha, on 10 April 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Actually... take out double heat sinks, and the problem of balance is resolved.

I too miss being a gausscat overlord.

[MustrumRidcully]

Teralitha, on 10 April 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Actually... take out double heat sinks, and the problem of balance is resolved.

Because Gauss Rifles are so perfectly balanced in the world of single heat sinks?
Because Ballistic weapons are so perfectly balanced in the world of single heat sinks in MW:Os abonimation of a heat system?

Shumabot said:

He's not actually very far off. This games systems aren't really designed around dubs being 100% ubiquitous. They're not designed around singles either though.

Heat scaling has no basis in this game and is totally ad hoc nonsense. Not that it matters when two thirds of the games guns wouldn't be good at any heat and three fourths of mech variants are mathematically inferior to the remaining fourth.

Part of the problem with this game is that its core mathematical basis, weapon scaling, weapon implementations maps, graphics, and game modes are all broken at the exact same time and are all based off of eachother when achieving balance. There is literally no solution to this games problems that don't involve a lot of major overhauls.

This however is true. Double Heat Sinks by design break the game balance.

But theoretically, there should be at least a way to balance Level 1 Tech against Level 1 Tech, and Level 2 Tech vs Level 2 Tech. If you really want that distinction.

Personally, I think the game might be better off at a balanced Level 2 Tech Level. Not because I don't want heat to matter, but because I associate Battletech (rightfully or wrongfully) with mechs equipping a lot of weapons. And Level 1 Tech doesn't allow all that many, because the mechs produce too much heat, and the ballistics are too heavy. but hey, Level 1 Tech will work, too, if you balance it.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 11 April 2013 - 04:27 AM.