81 replies to this topic

[Bommer]

Roland, on 09 April 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

There is no need for a cap on the number of players.

There should be two queues:
1) Solo, ungrouped players
2) Everyone else

This is how every other game in the world does it.

I agree 100%. Limiting group sizes, ( 4, 8, 12, whatever ) is just ridiculous. People want to play on the same team, not be left out due to some group size restrictions. Give the lone wolves their own queue, and let the teams drop as they will.

[Rednaught]

[REDACTED]

Anyway, I can see peoples logic in that 6 won't work due to the lance system, and an 8 man premade in a pug game would be too much for sure. I think the best solution is to split and make a group only queue with even numbered groups (as suggested). I guess the only issues preventing this would be PGI's ability to implement in and whether the playerbase is large enough to support solo, group and competitive play.

Edited by Viterbi, 10 April 2013 - 01:52 PM.
Removed response to off-topic content

[jay35]

Premades should not be mixed into PUG games, certainly not ones greater than 4 players since 4 player premades have already ruined many a PUG match.

Two 6-man premades being combined and dropped into the 12-man premades queue would be fine, though.

[Irvine]

4:8 and 6:12 keeps that same 1:2 ratio? why the bitching? Oh that is right, the vocal minority can't stand to interact with people. Most people run groups, as seen in the Ask the Devs 34:

Bryan Ekman, on 22 March 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Ask the Devs #34



Naitsirch: Will there be a no-premade / solo-drop mode or not.

A: We’re looking at it. Currently most MWO players actually play in groups.

[SmokinDave73]

Irvine, on 09 April 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

4:8 and 6:12 keeps that same 1:2 ratio? why the bitching? Oh that is right, the vocal minority can't stand to interact with people. Most people run groups, as seen in the Ask the Devs 34:

Good response Irvine I forgot about that answer in the previous ask the Devs 34 thanks for reminding me. Hopefully everyone else reading this thread to, maybe then people will stop bitching about premades seeing that premades are actually the majority in MWO not the minority.

[Hawkwings]

[REDACTED]

Quote

Anyway, I can see peoples logic in that 6 won't work due to the lance system, and an 8 man premade in a pug game would be too much for sure. I think the best solution is to split and make a group only queue with even numbered groups (as suggested). I guess the only issues preventing this would be PGI's ability to implement in and whether the playerbase is large enough to support solo, group and competitive play.

[REDACTED] What if I want to play with two friends? Oh no, I can't form a 3-man group. But I can do a 2 and a 4. Why not 3? [REDACTED] What if I'm a super hardcore clanner and only drop in groups of 5 for RP purposes? Then what?

The even-only group idea is completely arbitrary and has no rational basis. The real answer to all these groups is having a solo-only queue.

The issue is that a premade group is demonstrably more powerful than 4 individuals. They tend to dominate the match, especially if they are the only group. Sure, dropping with 6 people in an 8-man would be nice. So would showing up with a group of 4 for pick-up street basketball. It's about fairness. Having a large group on one side is not fair for the other players in the game. Since the game does allow for lone wolf play, there is an expectation that playing as a lone wolf can be fun and viable. However, with random drops so dominated by teams these days, it is no fun at all. A truly outstanding solo player will get abandoned by their teammates and mobbed down by a premade on the other side, while maybe taking down one or two. Very frustrating, not fun. A new player to the game will have no idea what is going on and get killed in approximately 11 seconds upon making contact with the enemy. No fun. In fact, the only people who benefit here are the premade 4s who go pubstomping for fun. The rest of the premade groups would hopefully like to challenge themselves in better matches without newbies, perpetual bads, etc. This is why I am fully in support of a solo-only queue (default selection for newbies) and a groups-allowed queue, which still allows solo dropping but with the expectation that there will be multiple groups on each side (basically what the normal queue is like right now). Better quality of play, better new player experience, and the only losers are the baddie 4-mans who want to pubstomp but can't cut it in higher skill levels of play. And to them I say: L2P.

[REDACTED]

Edited by Viterbi, 10 April 2013 - 01:56 PM.
Removed response to off-topic content

[Miken]

I would prefer separation of one man only mode and groups only mode

Edited by Miken, 10 April 2013 - 12:03 AM.

[Morang]

No. Bringing the number of coordinated players in otherwise PUG fight down from 1/2nd to 1/3rd will reduce the ROFLSTOMP effect (Speaking of example where there's only one coordinated lance among both teams).

Also it fits canon, IS lance = 4 mechs, and will make it easier to build lance- and company-oriented UI.

Though I think it should be a way to fight for 5 - 11 men groups, they should not drop in random fights.

[SmokinDave73]

Im seeing alot off good feedback, thanks guys Im glad to see peoples opinion on the matter wether it be for or agints the idea I think the notion of keeping preamdes impact on pug matches to a minimum by staying at 4 is actually a good idea, hopefully PGI can a seperate que for premades and for just solo lonewolfs so that other ideas such as having 2-3 4 man groups que up together and only go up againts other pre made groups can become a possibility

Edited by SmokinDave73, 10 April 2013 - 01:22 AM.

[AndyHill]

In 8 vs 8 the maximum number of players in a group should be 2, for 12 v 12 it might be possible to raise that number to 3.

[Stuii OCAU]

we don't 4 up to 6 man - we need ELO backed groups of any size!!
why with ELO can't we make it irrelevant how many people in a group dropping?

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Roland, on 09 April 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

There is no need for a cap on the number of players.

There should be two queues:
1) Solo, ungrouped players
2) Everyone else

This is how every other game in the world does it.

So true, and would breath more life into the group que.

Then again with the removal of the ability to drop as an 8 man in favor of 12 or go home we can clearly see, PGI's common sense has deserted them.

Single Solo Que.
Group Que - 2,4,6,8,10,12 (PLAYER CHOICE) and a little less dependent on your whole team being online 24/7 just to play...

[Ilwrath]

Not interested in pubbing against 6 man premades, or rather 12 after the lamers has got the sync done to an art.

Its time to make a pubbie que and let people premade whatever they want in a 12 man que for that. I don't want to prevent people teaming up with their precious friends, I just don't want to play against them. Or with them. Getting a premade on my team makes me ******** angry.

[Zylo]

I want to see the ELP vs Raven Alliance fight in 8vs8.

Someone get this set up and film it.
I'd put money on ELP since I've never even heard of this Raven Alliance corp.



Ok, on topic now the only real problem I see with a pure solo match option is that players will still find a way to exploit the system by sync-dropping solo. It might be worth testing but I suspect lone-wolf players are still going to be targeted by sync-drop exploiters.

This is why I feel the best option is returning groups to any size and matching them up against each other. With players encouraged to run larger groups fewer spots would need to be filled by lone-wolf players which would mean guys like Ilwrath would see more pure lone-wolf games.

Everyone wins in this case except the sync-drop exploiters of course.

[Taemien]

Roland, on 09 April 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

There is no need for a cap on the number of players.

There should be two queues:
1) Solo, ungrouped players
2) Everyone else

This is how every other game in the world does it.

Which games?

WoW didn't do this.
Neither did EQ2
Or RIFT
Or STO
And I'm sure there is others. Heck even MWLL had you matched against premades, they hosted the servers you played on. Though admittedly there were a few units that I'd rather were NOT on my team so we had a better chance of winning the round.

I very much remember getting matched against premades in all of those games.

[Zylo]

Taemien, on 10 April 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

Which games?

WoW didn't do this.
Neither did EQ2
Or RIFT
Or STO
And I'm sure there is others. Heck even MWLL had you matched against premades, they hosted the servers you played on. Though admittedly there were a few units that I'd rather were NOT on my team so we had a better chance of winning the round.

I very much remember getting matched against premades in all of those games.

Don't forget to add WoT to the list. I think War Thunder mixes groups and solo players as well, I'm not sure on max group size there as the largest group I have run there is a group of 3.

[Joseph Mallan]

Murphy's Law has over 12 players. There is no reason to have a cap once we are in CW.

[Roland]

Morang, on 10 April 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

No. Bringing the number of coordinated players in otherwise PUG fight down from 1/2nd to 1/3rd will reduce the ROFLSTOMP effect (Speaking of example where there's only one coordinated lance among both teams).

Also it fits canon, IS lance = 4 mechs, and will make it easier to build lance- and company-oriented UI.

Though I think it should be a way to fight for 5 - 11 men groups, they should not drop in random fights.

See, it'd actually be better if you removed the cap in the grouped queue, and made it such that solo players were the ones separated out (if they chose to be).

This would have a FAR more pronounced effect on removing the pubstomping effect that you describe.

As it stands, against a totally ungrouped set of 8, 4 coordinated players is easily enough to just mop the floor with them... so the current limit of 4 players really doesn't achieve anything beyond making it difficult for players to group as they like.

If you make it so that everyone who wants to group plays in one queue, and anyone who wants to play totally alone plays in another, you'll have far more evenly matched teams in terms of coordination... and you'll essentially remove the ability for folks to complain that they were unfairly matched against grouped players, since no grouped players at all would be in that queue.

[Asmosis]

if the system could match equal team size vs team size higher groups would be ok. However the system can't do that and balance elo effectively so i'd say either stick to 4-man teams, or go play in the team queue if you want larger teams.

[PropagandaWar]

I would prefer it to be what PGI said it would go back to. Up to 12. They already stated that there are more pre-mades than lone wolfs. So let the loners fill in the gaps. That or put in game comms so we can talk to the rest of the team and coordinate. If they did that I would be fine with standard lance size.