Jump to content

Third Time Is A Charm... Is Balancing Based On In Game Data?


41 replies to this topic

#1 Reptilizer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • Bridesmaid
  • 523 posts

Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:55 AM

Disclaimer:
This thread has not been designed to instigate any forum fights. This thread has the sole purpose to discuss the viability of changing ingame parameters according to forum trends as stated in the ask the devs #35:

"M0rpHeu5: Do you check the suggestions and the game balance topics?
A: Regularly. We tend to look for trends, rather than specific suggestions. When we see many threads about something being too powerful, we examine the root causes and implement a fix or tweak."

Bad way to single out stuff that needs fixing is bad for several obvious reasons including forum trolls. I would much prefer a balanced approach BASED on in game data. Discuss :D





To all volunteer moderators:
So please, as long as people are interested in discussing this somewhat unorthodox way of balancing in-game features, you might consider to leave this thread open since it does not violate any forum rules.
Or am i missing something here???

#2 Nicholas Carlyle

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 5,958 posts
  • LocationMiddletown, DE

Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:58 AM

If you can't beat Liao in game, you can sure as hell bludgeon them to death via the forums.

And PGI doesn't look at ingame data. Nor do they sample their customer base properly.

If they did, they would have noticed missile splash damage bring broken a long time ago.

And they'd realize ECM/Raven 3-L's are broke as hell.

And they might even realize that MG's SUCK.

#3 Noobzorz

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 929 posts
  • LocationToronto, ON

Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:58 AM

I am sure that looking at forum trends is the only way they ever choose to rebalance anything, and as a result this topic was useful and informative.

#4 Egomane

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,163 posts

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:02 AM

As long as MGs stay out of this topic and the atmosphere here not getting toxic, I'll let it live.

#5 Eshayz Lad

    Clone

  • PipPipPip
  • 50 posts

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:10 AM

Posted Image

#6 Royalewithcheese

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,342 posts

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:10 AM

I think part of the issue is that weapons are often balanced on intangibles that mean things in actual gameplay but are not easily captured in the raw data.

If a weapon has splash damage and splash damage is effective against certain components of an enemy mech (like legs and head) that matters.
If a weapon spreads damage around or hits precisely, that matters.
If a weapon is more or less effective against fast opponents, that matters.
If a weapon is effective most of the time but is rendered completely useless in specific situations, that matters.
Some people think crit-seeking matters (lol).

#7 3rdworld

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,562 posts

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:13 AM

View PostEshayz Lad, on 09 April 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Posted Image


i lol'd

#8 WolvesX

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Machete
  • The Machete
  • 2,072 posts

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:18 AM

View PostRoyalewithcheese, on 09 April 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

I think part of the issue is that weapons are often balanced on intangibles that mean things in actual gameplay but are not easily captured in the raw data.

If a weapon has splash damage and splash damage is effective against certain components of an enemy mech (like legs and head) that matters.
If a weapon spreads damage around or hits precisely, that matters.
If a weapon is more or less effective against fast opponents, that matters.
If a weapon is effective most of the time but is rendered completely useless in specific situations, that matters.
Some people think crit-seeking matters (lol).

Yup some do, its funny that crit-seeking doesn't to ANYTHING in actual gameplay.

3rd Person will change the gameplay extremely on a high level.

Edited by WolvesX, 09 April 2013 - 06:20 AM.


#9 Nonsense

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 414 posts
  • LocationAnn Arbor, MI

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:18 AM

View PostNoobzorz, on 09 April 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

I am sure that looking at forum trends is the only way they ever choose to rebalance anything, and as a result this topic was useful and informative.


I totally agree. It is best to assume the developers only use the forums to balance the game and nothing else.

#10 Mal

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 995 posts

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:29 AM

View PostReptilizer, on 09 April 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:



Bad way to single out stuff that needs fixing is bad for several obvious reasons including forum trolls. I would much prefer a balanced approach BASED on in game data. Discuss :D




Why are you jumping to the conclusion that forum trends are the only method of data gathering?

It's already well known that it isn't, they've even provided links to 'heat maps' with various metrics:
https://static.mwome...m/img/heatmaps/

Like any game developer, PGI is going to look at multiple sources of data, and use them all together to make design/balance decisions.

#11 Shumabot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,695 posts

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:29 AM

PGI doesn't really do balance changes. The only one in memory that wasn't addressing a bug that made the weapon in question fundamentally broken was the heat change and that was months ago. PGI just kinda bumbles around and makes things worse with bug fixed that dramatically exacerbate balance issues or pointless changes to LRM pathing five patches in a row.

#12 Crockdaddy

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 1,684 posts
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationSaint Louis

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:32 AM

View PostNoobzorz, on 09 April 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

I am sure that looking at forum trends is the only way they ever choose to rebalance anything, and as a result this topic was useful and informative.



This reply is OP, therefore I shall now QQ the forums in hopes the devs hear my angst, because they ONLY make decisions based on forum QQ's. FACEPALM. (In case my sarcasm was too OP, I agree with your point)

#13 Tekadept

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 1,290 posts
  • LocationPerth, Australia

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:48 AM

I thought the game was balanced based on the moon phases?

Edited by Tekadept, 09 April 2013 - 06:48 AM.


#14 Reptilizer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • Bridesmaid
  • 523 posts

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:50 AM

View PostRoyalewithcheese, on 09 April 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

I think part of the issue is that weapons are often balanced on intangibles that mean things in actual gameplay but are not easily captured in the raw data.

If a weapon has splash damage and splash damage is effective against certain components of an enemy mech (like legs and head) that matters.
If a weapon spreads damage around or hits precisely, that matters.
If a weapon is more or less effective against fast opponents, that matters.
If a weapon is effective most of the time but is rendered completely useless in specific situations, that matters.
Some people think crit-seeking matters (lol).


I like the part bout crit seeking...

Agreed that not everything is easy to see in raw game data, but they probably have some analytics Tools already on their desks. even we get statistics from our games, so they will at least have something similar at hand. And this should already be quite powerful when it comes down to usability and balancing.

And to all the ones facepalming because "because they ONLY make decisions based on forum QQ's": While i also doubt they do balancing without any in game data, i think it is generally a bad idea to change something on forum trends instead of post content.

There sure are some clever posts out there concerning game mechanics. They do not form trends, because they are often lengthy/complicated to follow. Which still makes them the better source of in-depth Information compared to an easily manipulated "trend" of some sort.

**** is the next big thing guys, 10.000 flies can not possibly err!!!

View PostMal, on 09 April 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:



Why are you jumping to the conclusion that forum trends are the only method of data gathering?



Simple really: Google "polemics" :D

#15 jeffsw6

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,258 posts
  • LocationLouisville, KY (suburbs)

Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:02 AM

View PostReptilizer, on 09 April 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

Bad way to single out stuff that needs fixing is bad for several obvious reasons including forum trolls. I would much prefer a balanced approach BASED on in game data. Discuss :D

Forum feedback isn't useless, but it shouldn't be taken as truth, either. There was nothing but LRM boat QQing for weeks even before the splash damage issue. During that time, other weapons were broken; and the LRM QQ drowned it all out. If something is over-powered, it will cause QQ. Under-powered? Much less.

Here is the root problem: there are statistics now that are even visible to PLAYERS, and PGI is completely ignoring that data. They have a big picture view of that data across all players, and can probably produce data on specific mechs, maps, and weapons over a large number of players and drops. They're not doing this.

They can also tell how many hours are played with various weapons equipped. That is a good indicator of whether or not a weapon is useful. If everyone is using Medium Lasers to some extent, they probably don't suck. Almost no-one using MG, Flamer, Small Pulse Laser -- an indicator that these weapons are not very useful. SPL is a filler and there are many other energy-weapon choices with similar ton/slot costs; otherwise there would be massive out-cry about it.

They can also collect data on what weapons produce the most killing blows. Right now, that would be the high point-damage weapons: AC20, Gauss Rifle, PPC, ERPPC. This is not necessarily an indication that the weapons themselves are over-powered, but that concentrated point damage deserves some thought. I think they are problematic, but many players do not agree. It's a complex issue that is hard to understand without a combination of data, player feedback (QQ), and if they decide something should be changed, TESTING.

Currently they are not doing any of these things well. This is a bad sign.

It is also plainly obvious that they are either not listening to the community staff folks that they hire to aggregate player feedback and communicate it to them, or those staff are not doing a good job. I tend to suspect the problem is on the developer end at this point, since some of these issues are obvious with simple arithmetic or trivial queries against the database of player stats.

I still think that integrated in-game VOIP is more important than anything else. Teamwork will change the balance of the game dramatically. It should favor brawlers and reduce some of the silly sniping. It would have nerfed LRM boating if the damage nerf didn't do it first. Being able to communicate with your PUG teammates will hugely change the game, and some of the weapon balance issues that are being cried about now, may not be such a big deal, once you can effectively cooperate in a random drop.

#16 Critical Fumble

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 810 posts

Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:13 AM

If I had to guess, they actually do gather and use data from games. Which is also the problem, because there are plenty of people who don't actually know how to play. Data they pull from the land of SHS LPL mechs is not helpful, but it still winds up in the pot with everything else.

See also, this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...o-game-balance/

#17 jeffsw6

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,258 posts
  • LocationLouisville, KY (suburbs)

Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:18 AM

Your guess is incorrect. The dev response made it blatantly obvious that they do not use the weapon or mech statistics effectively yet.

I really wish it kept track of Win/Loss based on which start point you drop into per-map, too. I have a strong suspicion that the south base in Alpine is a lot worse than the north base. One would imagine we have a 50/50 chance of dropping to either start point; but that kind of information might be useful in future map design. In short, it's a lot easier for most mechs to fight from atop a hill than the bottom of it (obviously) yet one team has far easier access to the giant mountain range.

#18 Chazer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 162 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:19 AM

"we examine the root causes" Thats the based on data you wanted. Thread answered before it was even started.

#19 Shumabot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,695 posts

Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:25 AM

View PostChazer, on 09 April 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

"we examine the root causes" Thats the based on data you wanted. Thread answered before it was even started.


Except they don't then "implement a fix or tweak". Thread reopened.

#20 Reptilizer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • Bridesmaid
  • 523 posts

Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:30 AM

View PostChazer, on 09 April 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

"we examine the root causes" Thats the based on data you wanted. Thread answered before it was even started.


Ah, using my own cudgel huh? Ok, lets boil it down for you:

"M0rpHeu5: blah...
A: Blah... When we see many threads ... we examine the root causes and implement a fix or tweak."

See what i did?





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users