9 replies to this topic

[Syllogy]

Yes, another LRM thread.

In test, I'm agree that statistically, LRM's are doing appropriate damage on a stationary, non-obscured target. (0.8 damage per missile + negligible splash damage.)

This translates to:

• LRM5 = 3.5 Damage / 0.86 DPS
  
• LRM10 = 7 Damage / 1.87 DPS
  
• LRM15 = 10.5 Damage / 2.47 DPS
  
• LRM20 = 14 Damage / 2.95 DPS

However, with stat collecting from 10 other players along with myself, LRM's maintain ~35% hit ratio, taking into account moving targets and map layout that allows targets to seek cover.

This means that those damage figures change drastically:

• LRM5 = 1.14 Damage / 0.35 DPS
  
• LRM10 = 2.45 Damage / 0.65 DPS
  
• LRM15 = 3.67 Damage / 0.86 DPS
  
• LRM20 = 14 Damage / 1.03 DPS

This means that, logically, a Flamer (1 ton) does more damage per second than an LRM5 (2 tons), and Small Laser (0.5 tons) does almost as much DPS as an LRM 20 (10 tons).

While an entire volley of LRM's can still be deadly to enemy mechs in perfect conditions (100% Hit), the weight, heat, space, and ammo limitations of these weapons is severely lacking when it comes to a well thought-out loadout.

Some Mechs can elect to use LRM's as support weapons, but others rely on them as a Primary weapon.

To achieve a happy medium without returning to LRMWarrior: Online, I would guess that; with the Splash Damage reduction, doubling the damage to LRM's would be an acceptable solution to the problem.

The end result on paper would look like this:

• LRM5 = 7 Damage / 2.15 DPS
  
• LRM10 = 14 Damage / 3.73 DPS
  
• LRM15 = 21 Damage / 4.94 DPS
  
• LRM20 = 28 Damage / 5.9 DPS

However, the real-world result would resemble this:

• LRM5 = 2.45 Damage / 0.75 DPS
  
• LRM10 = 4.9 Damage / 1.3 DPS
  
• LRM15 = 7.36 Damage / 1.73 DPS
  
• LRM20 = 9.8 Damage / 2.06 DPS

This brings LRM5's in line with with SRM2's (1 ton), and LRM20's in with Large Lasers.

Even a perfect 100% volley of missles to-hit would put LRM5's in line with Large Lasers, and LRM20's near AC20's.

Just sayin'.

[DocBach]

LRM-20s weigh twice as much as large lasers and are easier to dodge/avoid. Why should they be balanced against large lasers? A perfect LRM-20 salvo should do as much damage as an AC/20 hit, just spread about the enemy 'Mech a bit.

Edited by DocBach, 08 April 2013 - 07:55 AM.

[Syllogy]

DocBach, on 08 April 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

LRM-20s weigh twice as much as large lasers and are easier to dodge/avoid. Why should they be balanced against large lasers? A perfect LRM-20 salvo should do as much damage as an AC/20 hit, just spread about the enemy 'Mech a bit.

Lasers are also Direct Damage weapons with unlimited ammunition.

The other side of that is than an LRM10, which weighs the same amount as a Large Laser, would do about the same amount of damage in a match.

[MasterErrant]

by basic concept you are trading the indirect fire capability for absuloute damage. but I agree they havn't got them down yet. the big thing is flight time and accuracy.( which basically IS flight time. the flight time needs to be about three seconds at max range which still leaves you time to dodge if you are paying attention and are willing to lose a few shots. Which is Precisely what long range volly weapons are for in this context. at three hundred meters that would mean a one second flight time and dodging would be a full time job. Forcing players to depend on each other to survive it. Teamwork a stated goal of the devs. this would also balance the hugh buff Ballistics have been given in ROF and absolute range (I don't consider thes changes in energy weapons to be net buffs as all are effectively clustering weapons except the PPCs and they have such a slow filght time as to reduce their effectiveness.)

[Syllogy]

I could live with a speed increase vs. a damage increase. The end result would be similar: More missiles on target = more damage.

Edited by Syllogy, 08 April 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[ElLocoMarko]

I like the missile speed idea because it might somewhat close the large gulf between fast and slow mechs.

I have evidence that against light mechs it is half that.
In most games I prefer shooting assault mechs but this game was a little different.

Last Thursday, on a whim, I launched my LRM catapult (Dual ALRM20, TAG) and got Alpine. Woot.
I fired 440 rockets from a hillside down 400m onto a completely exposed Jenner that was just circling and shooting my teammates. The Jenner never left line of sight and I kept TAG on it the whole time.
440 missiles. 77 hits. 66 damage.

It was a memorable game. I've never launched with one of the devs and PGI (Thomas) was right beside me with a catapult and LRM as well. At the end of the game he actually said "like firing marshmallows"

So 440 missiles. 77 hits. That's 18% hit rate on an exposed and tagged light mech.
My normal post-hotfix LRM damage/hits is 1.05. This game was 0.86.
So not only a lower hit rate, but less damage per hit. You could see them chewing up the ground behind it. I didn't run LRM in any game since then so my numbers cover just that one game.

I'm going to put two flamers on this thing and double its damage potential!
Now I am a fully assimilated member of sniper online. I haz gauss rifles.

Edited by ElLocoMarko, 08 April 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[Zyllos]

I am up for a minor damage increase for LRMs, like a 14% increase to 0.8 damage, but a major increase in missile speed. I would suggest 200m/s (100% increase). This would make travel-time-to-target be 5.0s maximum and 1.0s minimum (well, dt = 181m / 200m/s, close to 1.0s).

I would suggest leaving LRMs with their current splash damage mechanic.

SRMs would also need a small damage increase, maybe 33% increase to 2.0.

I would suggest removing splash from SRMs all together.

[Rashhaverak]

Increasing the LRM flight speed wouldn't increase the DPS, except where the missile speed affect the number of missiles able to hit a fast Target. Still, if there is a gauge to missile speed I would propose that it be the ability to hit another mech before lock is lost.

I have a cat with all the right modules and items; artemis, tag, BAP, Adv. decay, adv. Sensor range, and Target I'd. Against a poptarter at 500m I can get a lock, but the missiles miss because the travel time is too long. The lock drops before the missiles can hit. What range should that happen at? If 500m is right, then the flight time is good.

[Deathlike]

My suggestion for those wanting an LRM buff that until they resolve all locking missiles not targeting the CT, all balance related stuff should be held off for a bit. It's hard to balance when the mechanic is badly broken.

Also, we don't know what the new splash/damage mechanic will be like once they address it...

Edited by Deathlike, 09 April 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Hm...like any topic that don't start with do this do these....math is always a good basis.
However i would say...
LRM 15 vs Large Laser
LRM 20 vs PPC

Artemis should improve the LRM like the ER did for the energy weapons.
However have you considered to hit? or have you considered...theoretical damage and damage dealt?
I expect that you have dealt more damage with 35% you have aproximatly dealt 40% damage in comparison with the potential maximum of your fired missiles.
When you have 35% to accuracy- considering the average of players (is that more to the upper end or lower end of accuracy)

AMS if installed will reduce that effect however.