40 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

Roland, on 11 April 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Ok.. I'm thinking about them.
What exactly is the problem?

You're talking about 4.8 DPS on a spider... which will be spread all over the place, with a range of 90m.

And you're talking about 7.2 DPS on a JagerMech... which, again, will be spread all over the place with a range of 90m.

Even if focused, that's really NOT THAT HIGH. A dual AC20 with 2 medium lasers has a DPS of 12.5, with more than twice the range.

A standard Raven 3L build has a DPS of around 5.5, with far better range, and without needing to hold the reticle over a single location at all times.

So what exactly is so incredibly horrific about the notion of the 4 MG spider or 6 MG JagerMech? I think you're afraid of those mechs without actually considering what they would be capable of.

Are we leaving Crits in or taking them out with the 3X damage profile?

[Zyllos]

hashinshin, on 11 April 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Let me help, again.

LBX10: Heat reduced to 1 from 2. Damage increased to 1.2 per pellet, from 1.0. Weapon speed increased to 2000 from 1100. Spread now tightens up the further the range you shoot at.
Makes it far more efficient, and actually slightly damaging. With its new heat efficiency it can be used with laser weapons to pinpoint locations as the LBX splashes all over. The spread tightening up will make it slightly more useful at longer ranges, but still not super useful, just slightly more useful.

I don't think the damage, speed, and heat buffs are needed. Just a MUCH more tightning to make 80% of the pellets hit a medium sized target a optimal range.

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AC10: Heat reduced to 1 from 3. Weapon speed increased to 2000 from 1100.
Makes the AC10 more efficient and able to be used with other ACs. Also makes it more effective as a ranged weapon.

I see nothing wrong with the AC/10.

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AC5+UAC5: Weapon speed increased to 2000 from 1300
AC5: Recycle reduced to 1.1 seconds.
Makes it so ACs are more effective at range, and makes it so multiple AC types can be used together. also makes the AC5 actually a good weapon.

Again, why the speed increases? And the UAC/5 shold be brought up to match the AC/5, not the other way around.

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AC2: Heat reduced to 0.75 from 1. Ammo/ton increased to 100.
The AC2 has 3 things wrong with it right now: 1. The listed DPS stat on the website is a LIE, and 2. It's actually not very heat efficient due to the impossibility of hitting every shot or even close to it. Also 3. The fact you have to sit there aiming at people and will always get cored. This will make it good in reality, and not in fantasy "spreadsheet island."

The heat I agree with. I would actually set it to 0.5 per shot, which would still make it slightly hotter than the AC/5. The ammo increase isn't needed. If your having to go through 3 tons of ammo, your either not efficiently firing the weapon or just want to be able to hold the button down.

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Machine guns: Damage tripled. (Now an amazing whopping 1.2 DPS!)
OHGODPLEASE devs. Stop being so stubborn.

Look, the machine gun should *maybe* deal like 0.1 damage. What REALLY needs to happen is balance the internal HP of items so that critical seeking is better. This is especially true for ammo bins, why is it only a 10% chance to get an ammo explosion when you physically destroy them when the bigger guns, which destroys sections, also get the 10% chance on all ammo bins in the section when it is destroyed?

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Small pulse laser: Damage increased to 4.
It's literally double the weight of the light laser. This only makes sense.

100% agreed.

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Medium pulse laser: Heat decreased to 4.5 from 5. Or increase the daamge to 6.5 from 6.
Will make it somewhat worth getting since it's, as above, DOUBLE the weight of the medium laser. Right now the correct choice in every instance is to get medium lasers then upgrade the engine/add more heat sinks rather than ever get medium pulse.

This I can not agree with, though. The only thing the Medium Pulse laser needs, as with the Large Pulse Laser, is more reduction in "On" time. Reduce it by 0.25s, to 0.5s.

Normal lasers should be 1.0s, ER Lasers to 0.75s, and Pulse Lasers 0.5s. The only one that is different is the ER Small Laser and Small Laser, which already start out at 0.75s.

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(As much as it pains me to do this as a Kurita player.)
PPC+ERPPC: Recycle increased to 3.75 from 3.
This honestly seems like a leftover from when PPCs were the "dump all your heat in to a massive burst" weapon. Now that they're more heat efficient their DPS needs to be toned back a bit, as people are just boating up on PPCs and using them to shred through players incredibly quickly. This won't effect casual PPC use much, but it will effect abuse cases. Anyone unconvinced of this should look up the PPC DPS stat, it's currently one of the highest DPS weapons in the game and it doesn't even use ammo. This will make the PPC slightly higher than the Large Pulse Laser on DPS, instead of completely dwarfing the LPL.

Hmm, I would be fine with increasing the PPC cooldown.

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Narc: Duration increased to 30 seconds, now overrides ECM. Velocity increased to 1000 from 250 (250? Really?)
It required massive tonnage, is hard to hit, only gives 6 shots to the ton. It should basically be a death sentence to be hit by this thing. Additionally if it overrides ECM it gives some real counterplay to missile users who want to sacrifice more than DOUBLE the tonnage of an ECM to beat it.

That seems a bit fast. I wouldn't make it any faster than an SRM, or 300 m/s. It should never override ECM, as it never did in the tabletop. Balance ECM, then make NARC duration 120s. ECM should be used to counter the buffing of locking mechanic weapons from NARC/TAG/Artemis equipment, not completely stopping them.

[SilvaDraconis]

There is no SIM/FPS balance. Its a dream.

There are strengths, weaknesses and the choices they force upon you that may or may not give you advantage this round but prevent the game from stagnating down to who has the most dependable network and twitch skill.

[stjobe]

MaddMaxx, on 11 April 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Need some clarity here. So to firm up your stance, the theoretical 4.8 dps of the 4MG Spider does 160 damage, but in practice would get only half of that, so it isn't all right scary, but for some reason a 4 SL Jenner in practice gets its FULL damage output? Repeatedly? And that makes it all good?

You are going have to do better than that dude.

You're mixing things up. The 160 damage was a non-buffed MG at 100% DPS - just like the Jenner numbers. A non-buffed 4 MG Spider has a DPS of 1.6 compared to the 4 SL Jenner's DPS of 4.

The triple-strength 4 MG Spider would have a DPS of 4.8, as I said, although in practice* it'd likely be about 2.4 because of the need to be on-target for 100% of the time, spread, and limited range.

It's far, far easier to get your full DPS with a beam-duration weapon than with a continuous-fire weapon, and hence a continuous-fire weapon could have a higher on-paper DPS without being OP in practice.

*According to the stats I collected (see here) the average accuracy with MGs is 56.51%, the average damage per projectile is 0.022, and the average damage done per match is 19.89.

Edited by stjobe, 11 April 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Appogee, on 11 April 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Evidence for this claim...?

This Forums QQ section on Balance perhaps? LOL

Edited by MaddMaxx, 11 April 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[I am]

Syllogy, on 11 April 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

This belongs in the Game Balance section.

(Just FYI, MG's won't get tripled. Think about the Non-Heat Generated DPS of a 4MG Spider or 6MG Jager)

Theres a game balance section?

[MaddMaxx]

stjobe, on 11 April 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

You're mixing things up. The 160 damage was a non-buffed MG at 100% DPS - just like the Jenner numbers. A non-buffed 4 MG Spider has a DPS of 1.6 compared to the 4 SL Jenner's DPS of 4.

The triple-strength 4 MG Spider would have a DPS of 4.8, as I said, although in practice* it'd likely be about 2.4 because of the need to be on-target for 100% of the time, spread, and limited range.

It's far, far easier to get your full DPS with a beam-duration weapon than with a continuous-fire weapon, and hence a continuous-fire weapon could have a higher on-paper DPS without being OP in practice.

*According to the stats I collected (see here) the average accuracy with MGs is 56.51%, the average damage per projectile is 0.022, and the average damage done per match is 19.89.

OK, thanks, now that I am Claratin clear, I have to ask, so the 4X MG SPIDER would do more dps than the SL Jenner, with no heat, and because we simply assume they cannot possibly keep a target tracked very well, unlike a SL Jenner apparently can, that 4.8 DPS would be ok?

Still not convinced. Simply because speed doesn't kill. Speed, with high DPS output, kills...

Edited by MaddMaxx, 11 April 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Syllogy, on 11 April 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

This belongs in the Game Balance section.

(Just FYI, MG's won't get tripled. Think about the Non-Heat Generated DPS of a 4MG Spider or 6MG Jager)

1.2 DPS per MG will still be very weak even when mounted in groups of 4-6. No one "fears" a 6 sl Jenner, nor would they fear a 6 MG Jager or Spider. You will not be doing the full 1.2 DPS with a MG is virtually any situation.

A SL does 3 damage in .75 seconds. then it has a cooldown, the MG would do 1.2 damage in a full second and would need to stay on the target for the entire 3 seconds to do more damage, not really practical in an actual game.

MaddMaxx, on 11 April 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Are we leaving Crits in or taking them out with the 3X damage profile?

Honestly, I think you could leave the crit buff on the MG and it would be fine. I would also be willing to see it removed. Because the crit buff is not important enough to worry about.

[Tickdoff Tank]

MaddMaxx, on 11 April 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

OK, thanks, now that I am Claratin clear, I have to ask, so the 4X MG SPIDER would do more dps than the SL Jenner, with no heat, and because we simply assume they cannot possibly keep a target tracked very well, unlike a SL Jenner apparently can, that 4.8 DPS would be ok?

Still not convinced. Simply because speed doesn't kill. Speed, with high DPS output, kills...

You are forgetting about the beam duration+cooldown aspect of the small laser. The laser does 3 damage in .75 seconds. Not hard to keep your target in front of you for that time. Then you have 2.25 seconds in which to move and line up your next shot.

The MG has to stay on a moving target, withing 90m, while moving your own mech, for the full 3 seconds to do full DPS, and in that situation there is almost no way to do the full MG damage to a single location. With the SL it is not all that hard to hit a single location more often than not, even if you spread the damage around some.

Edited by Tickdoff Tank, 11 April 2013 - 10:12 AM.

[Roland]

MaddMaxx, on 11 April 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

OK, thanks, now that I am Claratin clear, I have to ask, so the 4X MG SPIDER would do more dps than the SL Jenner, with no heat, and because we simply assume they cannot possibly keep a target tracked very well, unlike a SL Jenner apparently can, that 4.8 DPS would be ok?

Still not convinced. Simply because speed doesn't kill. Speed, with high DPS output, kills...

Dude, since when is 4.8 DPS considered high?

Any reasonable Raven3L configuration has a higher DPS.

Most mechs in the game have higher DPS. A single UAC5, fired only on cool down, has a higher DPS.

Even in absolutely ideal conditions, against a perfectly stationary target while you yourself are not moving, so you can lay all of that damage perfectly on target... it's STILL NOT THAT GOOD.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Most ACs have a DPS of somewhere around 4. Given all of it's other limitations, an MG with a base DPS of 1.2 is not too bad.

[Terror Teddy]

Syllogy, on 11 April 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

This belongs in the Game Balance section.

(Just FYI, MG's won't get tripled. Think about the Non-Heat Generated DPS of a 4MG Spider or 6MG Jager)

With a cone of fire and cannot hit the broadside of a barn unless the target stands still. Even if you give it 1,2 DPS you will most likely have 0,2 damage spread out of 4-5 sections or simply MISS the target.

[hashinshin]

Terror Teddy, on 11 April 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

With a cone of fire and cannot hit the broadside of a barn unless the target stands still. Even if you give it 1,2 DPS you will most likely have 0,2 damage spread out of 4-5 sections or simply MISS the target.

nah dude, MGs will ruin the game! RUIN IT!

[SilentSooYun]

They most certainly do not.
Reams of suggestions about balancing ECM and what was their takeaway?
ECM gets it's own special slot now.
Colour me unimpressed.

[Vermaxx]

Machine guns are worthless. They could triple the DPS and nothign would change.

A mech running four, or six of them, for zero heat? TERRIFYING, THE GAME WILL IMPLODE. Oh wait, no, because someone with a heat-efficient energy load STILL beats the breaks off that...cat.

[Phoenix Gray]

It's getting to where I hear the words "balance" and "fair" and the same hackles start rising on the back of my neck that rise when I hear a Congressdrone talking about "justice"...

[Roland]

[shintakie]

MaddMaxx, on 11 April 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

OK, thanks, now that I am Claratin clear, I have to ask, so the 4X MG SPIDER would do more dps than the SL Jenner, with no heat, and because we simply assume they cannot possibly keep a target tracked very well, unlike a SL Jenner apparently can, that 4.8 DPS would be ok?

Still not convinced. Simply because speed doesn't kill. Speed, with high DPS output, kills...

The 4 MG spider is, at bare minimum, 4 tons while the 6 SL Jenner is, again at bare minimum, 3 tons, while at the same time bein ammo constrained and havin less range and havin bullet spread. Why exactly is it an issue that the 4 MG spider would do more dps when it needs to stay on target 100% of the time and deal with bullet spread while the 6 SL Jenner (or whatever equivalent mech you can think of) only needs to stay on target for however long you weapon fires for. In the case of the SL, .75 seconds. In the case of every other ballistic, instant damage.

[Terror Teddy]

Zyllos, on 11 April 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Look, the machine gun should *maybe* deal like 0.1 damage.

A 500 kilogram weapon dealing 0,1 damage against ablative armour that shaves off in pieces when hit?

We are talking about non-man-portable automatic weapons that must be vehicle mounted - it is NOT a 0,5 browning machinegun - its basically a 20mm vulcan gun.

You DO realize that the Small Laser is 1/14 the weight of the ERPPC but does 1/3 of the DPS? While the MG is 1/12 the weight of the AC/2 and does 1/10 the DPS.

Several of the first one can be made heat neutral with DHS and using the weight for MG ammo as additional heatsinks - The MG can only run dry and become useless.

How much should we nerf the SL because it is obviously doing to much damage...

Edited by Terror Teddy, 11 April 2013 - 08:58 PM.

[HereticalPsycho]

MaddMaxx, on 11 April 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Are we leaving Crits in or taking them out with the 3X damage profile?

At the moment, MG's are only useful for stripping internals that aren't an engine, now keeping in mind my ELO is in the ballpark of bad and very bad most likely but when im looking for sections missing armor (I bought a spider 5k sue me its a speedy little thing) so that I had a chance to remove some guns from some people so that my team would get shot less the only sections missing armor were CT (not all but more often then not) since that's where the engine is and the only place worth shooting to destroy a mech.

Since MG's can't crit an engine and they can't destroy armor i'm left with a mech that excels at destroying internals but no access 80% of the time and on those odd times where my team has been a real sweatheart and gotten me a Left Torso open even if I remove all the guns in that section odds are there are more behind armor somewhere else they can use to shoot at things. The way I see it MG's either need to be able to destroy armor or destroy engines


I'm not sure if both is necessary but i'm just theorising here

Edited by HereticalPsycho, 11 April 2013 - 09:15 PM.