18 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Everybody that is common with that topic will start to cry at my figures...because my knowledge is only rudimental at best.

I thought a couple of times how the Speed Tweak should work?
A Mech that has a 300 fusion and weight 100ton couldn't run faster as 48 kph, because the energy production is hampering him.

That brought me the idea that BattleTech have no energy conversion efficiency.
That fact is reflected with heat...but even with that it is not worked out right.

Every weapon produces heat while firing and it produces heat while reloading. I believe ballistic weapons and missile weapons will produce much more heat while firing.
Only the gauss is a really special case. I really believe that it should produce 10 rather than 1 heat. Maybe on of those mistakes in the TT canon.

The fusion and movement:

So for example the VLAR 300 can accelerate an Atlas to 48kph or a Centurion run 96kph.
For that the 300 has to produce 1.1MWs for the Atlas and 2.2MWs for the Centurion.
So let’s predict that the Speed Tweak is just better technology to make the energy conversion efficiency better. From 82.5% to 90.75 % resulting that the same energy output can create more speed.

Thermic waste energy - bane of every Mechwarrior

As you see there is a difference towards 100%. That will cause thermic heat.
So an Atlas without speed tweak running full speed has a thermic waste energy of: 19KW.
While the Centurion has 38 KW waste energy. Those have to be removed through heat sinks.

So what about 0.19 HPS for the Atlas and 0.38 HPS for the Centurion.

Same could be turned to weapon fire.

I asserted that a weapon need about 300MJ to remove a chunk of 10 armor points.
With an efficiency of 99% a PPC have to produce 300MWs...For the simple fact....the beam isn't a second just a split second 100ms? So it has to be 3000MWs....however 3000MWs will blow my calculation and the heat through the sky.

So there is 3MW thermic waste energy while reloading and shooting.
3MW for reloading means 1HPS per second. (When firing at 3sec – the skill fast fire could be explained by better efficiency)

Shooting means 30heat for the discharge. (But it’s a spike so thermal energy is also removed over the barrel etc. before flushing into the system.)
Let’s pretend the heat of shooting is removed for a second with factor 10 of the Mechs HPS.
So a Mech with 3HPS can remove 30 heat in the second after shooting. For better demonstration the Mech will have now only 2HPS. So the spike heat is removed by 20 points in the first second. Adding the reload heat…the Mech can remove 3 heat points while reloading the PPC…and standing still. So after 3sec the Mech is at 7 heat.
Moving will reduce the HPS of that mech. So a Centurion with full speed will have 8,14heat. While an Atlas with full speed will have 7.57 heat after shooting.

Fusion Rating = energy per second?
What happens when a 300 Rating Engine can create 300MWs?


Example: wrong and right with the AS7-K
I will take the AS7-K for calculation.
ER-Large-Laser 250MW = 76MWs
Gauss; 450 MW recharging 0.1MWs reloading = 112,1MWs
Medium Pulse Laser: 160 MW = 53MWs
LRM 20….reloading 0.2 MWs = 0.2 MWs

So a full alpha with running at top speed will need for reloading: 365.4 MWs
This will also produce 3.65 HPs

But the fusion is only able to produce 300MWs lucky the maximum HPS is 3.
With 2 HPS the Mech’s heat scale will rise 1 every second…while reloading.

But that’s not the main problem of that Atlas pilot.

The spike heat (LRM thrusters will increase heat largely) will cause some serious problems. 3times the given rating of canon stats because I don’t have values.

Let’s assert that the large barrel of the Gauss have a nice side effect, so that recharging will cause only a fraction of heat (1/4)…an energy weapon would produce.

Spike heat must be somewhere about 110. The HPS of 2 means the Atlas can remove 20 in the first second after the alpha strike leaving the heat still at 83.

Now Heat Warnings will flash…security protocols want to shut down the mech.
You better do.
Because the fusion reactor produces only 10% of his power, in this case just 30MWs for 0.3HPS.
It will last another 22sec to bring the heat to 50 (what is the heat cap of an AS7-K Atlas).
At this point the fusion engine will have enough power to recharge weapons at 30% speed…so that instead of 3HPS its 1HPS but energy production is only 100MWs. At 75% heat the systems start to work with 60% and below 50% the work nominal.

So there don’t have to be internal damage through overheating…overheating will just shut your mech effectively down.


When you chain fire your weapons each after the other…you can prevent, much heat buildup. Because even 2HPS could handle a ER Large Laser in 3.5secs. You don’t stress your energy production as well.

Discussion

There are losts of silly figures.. I duno if they are 100% right or wrong. Just an idea. How to create more depth into Mechwarrior. Maybe the efficency of a weapon could be linked with the size of that weapon too. A PPC could have a better efficency heat -build up etc. as a Small Laser.

Next is that moving fast will automatically reduce the available energy for reloading your guns. Although in this example it is not a serious figure...but the Heat spike is dead serious. As you know there was allready something similar in Mechwarrior 3. Althoug you had dozens of heatsinks - the fire of a single PPC caused serious heat issues.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 11 April 2013 - 03:46 AM.

[El Bandito]

I don't want a wall of text.

I just want to say that High heat should negatively affect a mech's move and turn speed. Like in the novels.

[Karl Streiger]

El Bandito, on 11 April 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

I don't want a wall of text.

I just want to say that High heat should negatively affect a mech's move and turn speed. Like in the novels.

Hm..in short words:

• every weapon produce heat when recharging
  
• every Mech produce heat while moving -> the faster the more
  
• every weapon produce incredible high heatlevel when firing (called heat spike - that is reduced with a short rate of 10x the HPS of your Mech)
  
• energy production -> rate a weapon is recharging is limited to the reactor rating. (a 300 can hardly more as 3 PPCs, or 2 Gauss Rifles)
  
• RESULT: forcing more fire discipline - bigger engine more energy production -> more energy weapons....

[Taemien]

OP, you're thinking too hard into it and a bit in the wrong direction.

The reason an Atlas with a VLAR 300 is limited by speed is not because of the power output of the engine, but because of the stresses on the Myomer bundles. In addition the 48kph isn't a hard limit based on those limitations either. It is the average speed an average pilot of normal skill can push such a machine.

In BattleTech there is advanced rules for mech sprinting to go more than say 3/5 movement. In addition there is means through satellite mapping system to make the mech's effective pathing to squeeze more speed out of a set interval of movement. In addition pilot skill (represented in MWO by speed tweak) also makes this easier.

To throw some numbers at you, the Atlas with a 300 engine moves at 3/5. Sprinting movement would be 6. With a proper satelite mapping system that number increases to 7. With proper piloting feats that number would increase to 8. With it all said and done an Atlas could theoretically move at 86kph with a 300 engine. This is before a Supercharger or Triple Strength Myomer is used as well.

Course using all those modifiers on some of the faster light mechs also propels them to obscene speeds of 300-400kph. But yeah.. mechs can get pretty darn quick under the right conditions and in the hands of a damn good pilot.

[Karl Streiger]

Taemien, on 11 April 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

OP, you're thinking too hard into it and a bit in the wrong direction.

The reason an Atlas with a VLAR 300 is limited by speed is not because of the power output of the engine, but because of the stresses on the Myomer bundles.
...
...

To throw some numbers at you, the Atlas with a 300 engine moves at 3/5. Sprinting movement would be 6. With a proper satelite mapping system that number increases to 7. With proper piloting feats that number would increase to 8. With it all said and done an Atlas could theoretically move at 86kph with a 300 engine. This is before a Supercharger or Triple Strength Myomer is used as well.

I don't know the satelite thing. Sounds interesting however. But when a Atlas with all those things is able to such blatant fast movement....I'm still curious why the Mechs will go down hard...when using that movement rates at low g combat sites.

To use the rating of a fusion for anything else but to determine what speed a mech can run is a old idea of mine.
It got some food in the last year in a cool topic in official battletech forums.

The speed thing would been a side effect...also based on the suggestion of other players in that forum. The faster your mech move the more energy in consumes...the more heat it produce.

Even if the fusion is able to produce endless energy in an instant there is still the energy grid of the mech that have to deliver those huge energy. I'm not sure that will happen without costs

[Zyllos]

Here is a problem with the above...

You are placing TOO much emphasis on using large engines. Some mechs were designed to wield a vast array of weapons but move extremely slow.

MWO is already placing too much emphasis on using larger engines because of the effect of DHS being reduced for the default 10 DHS, which are the most important.

[Karl Streiger]

Zyllos, on 11 April 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

You are placing TOO much emphasis on using large engines. Some mechs were designed to wield a vast array of weapons but move extremely slow.

MWO is already placing too much emphasis on using larger engines because of the effect of DHS being reduced for the default 10 DHS, which are the most important.

Got you....

Talking about the 4P....200 Fusion.

150 MW per MLAS.
8 MLAS need 400MWs
Means 4MLAS recharging in the first 3sec. The other need again 3sec. So you can just keep firing 4MLAS.

Heat: 2.3 HPS.... so spike heat can reduce 23Heat.

Firing 6MLAS at the same time will cause 90heat.- after heat spike is reduced you still have 67what is 126% heat. So energy production is nearly disabled. Firing them with a delay of 0.5sec will make things less problematic however.

Its still a prototype idea...so there has to be used a lot of grey matter to figure things out.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 11 April 2013 - 06:02 AM.

[Gregore]

why does the engine have to put out twice as much power for the centurion.

At the 1.1 that moves the atlas 48kph, it should move the centurion (on a linear scale) 96 kph since the centurion has half the weight.

instead you are stating that an engine needs to work twice as hard to move an object that is half the weight at double the speed.

where x is the power needed
x/100=48 then x/50=96 not 2x/50=96.
math does not work that way.
The way you said it with the double heat output means(to me at least) that the engine is working twice as hard, this means that the cent would be going 192kph.

[Karl Streiger]

Gregore, on 11 April 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

...

because it is not math but physics.
As said i duno if its right:
Mechanical work = F*s
F = m*a
s = 1/2a*t²
a = v/t

So W = m*v² /2

That means - oh i have a mistake:
Atlas with v of 14ms = 9.8MW
Centurion with 27ms = 18.225 MW

[MeatForBrains]

See, you could eliminate hard points by limiting the amount of available energy for weapons. You could increase speed, or even cycle times for energy weapons, the drawback being heat.

Ballistic and missle of course would have a fixed reload time.

For instance if you've got 300 energy in an engine
subtract walking speed, and just general energy usage for life support and electronics. Reduces you to 250, and a large laser uses 25 energy per second to reload, you could boat the crap out of any weapon, but one shot could destroy you.

I think this would add lots of depth, and allow much more diversified builds.

[Gregore]

physics is math. just a lot more of it.
everything is math!!!

[IceSerpent]

El Bandito, on 11 April 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

I just want to say that High heat should negatively affect a mech's move and turn speed. Like in the novels.

It should, but it would require proper weapon / heat balance similar to TT rules. If you just introduce high heat penalties to MWO as it is now, you will end up with everybody driving AC20 boats.

[Karl Streiger]

IceSerpent, on 11 April 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

It should, but it would require proper weapon / heat balance similar to TT rules. If you just introduce high heat penalties to MWO as it is now, you will end up with everybody driving AC20 boats.

Well the AC 20 is a high heat weapon...7 heat per shot...maybe because of the "waste" energy of the proppelant maybe we have a sicfi - todays Electro Thermic Chemic weapon...one that use electric energy to ignite the proppelant what will result in better v0.

The above ideas will however turn even the Gauss into a "energy" weapon. With small heat spike while shooting but nearly with the same heat per second as a ER-PPC while reloading.

You can even consider the "movement" of arms or facing of weapons as energy consuming task that will also generate heat.

However if i will follow this path - maybe BattleTech can be turned into "real" SciFi.
If that is "enjoyable" for the average MWO - Hawken -WoT Player is the question.

[Blue Boutique]

Karl Streiger, on 11 April 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

Well the AC 20 is a high heat weapon...7 heat per shot...maybe because of the "waste" energy of the proppelant maybe we have a sicfi - todays Electro Thermic Chemic weapon...one that use electric energy to ignite the proppelant what will result in better v0.

In TT, AC/20 was to represent various barrel calibers firing at different rates to get up to 20 damage per 10 seconds. The only reason the Gauss had a low heat index is because it was a one shot sniper weapon with a long reload rate.

Edited by Blue Boutique, 12 April 2013 - 12:57 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Blue Boutique, on 12 April 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

In TT, AC/20 was to represent various barrel calibers firing at different rates to get up to 20 damage per 10 seconds. The only reason the Gauss had a low heat index is because it was a one shot sniper weapon with a long reload rate.

If there would have been infantry in game... that would be an interesting fact because the AC 20 is able to cause some serious havoc on a platoon while the Gauss is just able to kill one ore two men.

To fix that the conversion of the Gauss or AC 20 into MWO have to be another.
Much more heat for the Gauss -> or higher RoF for the AC 20 at reduced heat. (1dmg and 0.175 heat per shot with 5shots per second)

Only advantage the AC 20 has actually is that it can take 18dmg before beeing destroyed - only if you are able to have some other components in that location 10:2- in matters really. The Gauss take a critical with a chance of 7:5. I believe that reduces the advantage for the AC 20.

[Duncan Fisher]

Taemien, on 11 April 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

OP, you're thinking too hard into it and a bit in the wrong direction.

The reason an Atlas with a VLAR 300 is limited by speed is not because of the power output of the engine, but because of the stresses on the Myomer bundles. In addition the 48kph isn't a hard limit based on those limitations either. It is the average speed an average pilot of normal skill can push such a machine.

In BattleTech there is advanced rules for mech sprinting to go more than say 3/5 movement. In addition there is means through satellite mapping system to make the mech's effective pathing to squeeze more speed out of a set interval of movement. In addition pilot skill (represented in MWO by speed tweak) also makes this easier.

To throw some numbers at you, the Atlas with a 300 engine moves at 3/5. Sprinting movement would be 6. With a proper satelite mapping system that number increases to 7. With proper piloting feats that number would increase to 8. With it all said and done an Atlas could theoretically move at 86kph with a 300 engine. This is before a Supercharger or Triple Strength Myomer is used as well.

Course using all those modifiers on some of the faster light mechs also propels them to obscene speeds of 300-400kph. But yeah.. mechs can get pretty darn quick under the right conditions and in the hands of a damn good pilot.

I hereby crown you Loremaster Taemein, Grand Vizier of the Tabletop

[Kurayami]

heh would be fun to see energy consumption in mechwarrior. but this will also never happen.

tl:dr - complex thing makes people go FFFFUUUUUUUUU. mechwarrior community magically not the main mwo audience based on devs course of actions. normal people like their mechs more arcadish.

for example some simple and fun limitations of armored core - heat, energy generation, chassis weight limit, hardpoint weight limit.
everything producing heat - moving, firing, taking fire, environment conditions - even generating energy heat up mech.
cooling process (based on stat of all systems btw)... drains energy - f u minmax builds) emergency cooling (yes this is independent stat based on WHOLE mech setup) drains a LOT of energy. there are cools shots... but guess what? they are taking shoulders slots, have weight aaaaand - yes they drain energy while equipped. did i mention that the are destructible?

weight restrictions are brilliant - legs weight (how much can they carry) torso weight (limits internals+arms) and arms weight (limits internals+weapons) aaaaand - the heavier the mech - the bigger amount of energy needed for moving and the bigger heat it produces. also legs have fun restrictions on jumping, moving, energy consumption etc etc etc

fun right? easy to learn and extremely fun to tweak with but...... people go ffffuuuuu apparently it is too hard. buhu my assault class cant fly. buhu my ultralight cant charge this uberlaserofdoom. buhu i cant oneshot enemy etc etc so again

tl:dr - mechwarriors are not the main audience of mwo based on devs actions. ordinary people dont like complex things - they make em go fffuuuuu

[RainbowToh]

Well this post just shows that you are physicist and not a mechanic. Did the speed tweak specifically imply changes to the reactor engine only? Or the heat/energy generation involved??

How about the actual moving parts of the mech? Have you thought about that? The leg actuators, moving parts that translate that fusion energy into physical movement? Have you spare any thoughts on those rather than churning out numbers. That is how cars are improved without tampering too much with the engine output. Little detailed improvement that improved physical translation of energy input, like improved aerodynamics for a plane meaning better airflow and faster speed without a need for improvement in engine output. So just imagine speed tweak as an OVERALL design improvement of the mech in relation to movement, not just the engine.

And if you want to be more specific, you can go into heatsink design, energy conduit design and all sorts of design improvements

[Karl Streiger]

RainbowToh, on 12 April 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

Well this post just shows that you are physicist and not a mechanic. Did the speed tweak specifically imply changes to the reactor engine only? Or the heat/energy generation involved??

How about the actual moving parts of the mech? Have you thought about that? The leg actuators, moving parts that translate that fusion energy into physical movement? Have you spare any thoughts on those rather than churning out numbers. That is how cars are improved without tampering too much with the engine output. Little detailed improvement that improved physical translation of energy input, like improved aerodynamics for a plane meaning better airflow and faster speed without a need for improvement in engine output. So just imagine speed tweak as an OVERALL design improvement of the mech in relation to movement, not just the engine.

And if you want to be more specific, you can go into heatsink design, energy conduit design and all sorts of design improvements

Ok i got the concept of translation. So speed tweak could be acchieved with better myomer muscels?
So every thing in the mech could get a slight improvement of design or material to simulate the "mech skill"

However the main intend of a energy grid concept is not corrupted by your design improvements

But with your comment you brough a new idea.... the heat sink is only limited in its ability to transfer heat.
So to much heat will kill heat sinks. But what is the heat that is necessary to do that.?

@Kurayami
I don't know anything about Armored Core... but that sound like fun.
The calculations shouldn't have to show their ugly face in combat...maybe the MechLab is a good way to prefent all those facts.
With a bar for energy consumption
A bar for heat
A bar for heat disaption
Weigh limitations for hardpoints...wait - isn't that something some of the MWO audience want?

And a way to configure all those things
In the result...player could still use arcade style mech with all bars at maximum or shortly bellow. And players that wasted hours of configuration that have weapons that have more heat and energy consumption there Mechs can handle saefty - but when they knew when to shot wich weapon they should get unto another level over the arcadish players