98 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

PS: Balance, Shmalance.

I don't give a crap whether the other team got some kind of notional advantage because their spawn had different terrain to mine. We're not playing for prizemoney in the world cup, this is just a game.

I would take great pride in being able to fight well regardless of what unfamiliar terrain or circumstances I got thrown into.

Soldiers rarely get to pick their battlefields, and rarely are their battlefields ''fair''.

Edited by Appogee, 13 April 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[Terran123rd]

In theory, this is a good idea. But the effort is still there, it's just been placed on the shoulders of a programmer rather than an artist. It's not less effort, just a different kind. The kind of effort that would take away from things like CW or more gameplay modes.

[Treckin]

Try Star Trek Online for a dose of "randomly" generated maps.

Horribad.

[Henchman 24]

Wasn't this already addressed in an ATD...32 or 35? Someone pointed me to it a week or so ago.

Anyway, there is so much tuning, asset calls, etc to support the game modes, that this idea is impractical at best.
This may work in some other games...but I recall a couple that just plain ran terribly.

Also of note...this is the CryEngine...maps are hard enough to get stable when carefully planned and laid out...nevermind when some generator overlaps brushes badly...we'd have an all new forum name for the game at that point, FallthruthemapWarrior Online!

No, I'd rather have custom made, tuned, stable(hopefully), beautiful maps thanks.

[Damocles]

Appogee, on 13 April 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

PS: Balance, Shmalance.

I don't give a crap whether the other team got some kind of notional advantage because their spawn had different terrain to mine. We're not playing for prizemoney in the world cup, this is just a game.

I would take great pride in being able to fight well regardless of what unfamiliar terrain or circumstances I got thrown into.

Soldiers rarely get to pick their battlefields, and rarely are their battlefields ''fair''.

+1

[Moromillas]

Appogee, on 13 April 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Yes. Never as good as a hand-crafted and tweaked map. But once you get the engine and algorithms right, you can have an infinite variety of ''good enough'' maps on the fly. It honestly isn't rocket science.

See my post above.

Or ask Notch.

Or just, you know, apply coding techniques, starting with an array and tile set, like we used to back when we were actually creating new computer games, instead of just reskinning pre-made game engines over and over

On the programming level, it's a bit more involved than that. You're not talking about random seeds, or stitching together prefabs correctly to make a labyrinth. There's a whole lot of gameplay concepts to consider. There are already maps for the cry engine that you can generate, but in terms of gameplay, it just doesn't cut the mustard.

[Teralitha]

Appogee, on 13 April 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

Even if that means you only get a choice of 5 to 10 maps, in endless rotation, forever...?

Don't you get bored with knowing in advance how each battle will go, where the brawls will be, where the snipers will hide, etc?

To me that's like Groundhog Day.

This is also caused by base cap mechanic. If there were no bases, theres no telling how any battle will be fought... The possibilities are infinite.

[Coolant]

gonna be a month and a half...month and a half!...from the time Tourmaline came out to the next map Canyon. Wow, I'm sorry, but that is just unacceptable. I think PGI has said numerous times they will not really consider player-made maps or computer generated cause they can't test them. Well, then make some poor maps and release them every patch while working on grand glorious ones in the background and release once every month or two. But a month or longer between maps is not enough content to keep players interested and keep new players coming back...

[Kristov Kerensky]

Appogee, on 13 April 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

PS: Balance, Shmalance.

I don't give a crap whether the other team got some kind of notional advantage because their spawn had different terrain to mine. We're not playing for prizemoney in the world cup, this is just a game.

I would take great pride in being able to fight well regardless of what unfamiliar terrain or circumstances I got thrown into.

Soldiers rarely get to pick their battlefields, and rarely are their battlefields ''fair''.

Actually, modern militaries DO know where they will be going, they get the most up to date information about the area as possible and try to get real time imagery as often as they can, which for some militaries, like the US, means all the time. I'm pretty sure that 1000 years from now the battlefields are NOT covered in a fog of war because..and this is the real kicker here...these battlegrounds have been used many many times over. Tourmaline desert has a description for it on the website, you should read it some time, it's one of the many such battlegrounds in the IS, fought on hundreds of times over the centuries.

Randomly generated maps are great for dungeons...and that's about it. And even with that said, you don't see them in WoW, AoC, AC, AC2, DDO, LoTRO or any of the other dungeon crawler MMO games out there. You know why? Because they actually are really bad when implemented. Just look at STO which DOES use them, a major feature of the game is the randomly generated terrains and complexes you'll explore. They are HORRIBLE! I've actually had way too many times when I had to quit the mission totally due to the fact that I was literally unable to get the final objective because it was put where you couldn't get.

'But that's a random and rare thing' you say..random yes, rare no. And in a competative game, you do NOT take chances of making it impossible for the 2 sides to meet, which is exactly what can happen with randomly generated maps. Will it happen a lot..no, odds vary based on the methods used to generate the maps, but it WILL happen, and just ONE single time is enough to make it totally game breaking.

Terrain glitches run rampant with randomly generated maps, its a fact you keep brushing aside because, hey, there are some in the handmap maps! Guess what, those glitches in the handmade maps can be fixed, the ones in the random maps can't. And there's no game stopping glitches in the handcrafted maps because they TEST them to make sure of that. Randomly generated maps...no such testing, game stopping glitches will happen too often to be allowed.

And finally..balance. You are totally correct, there is no such thing as a balanced battlefield in real life, but war isn't a game on a computer either. WE are playing a GAME, and due to that simple fact, balance on the map is essential. Random maps would have no balance at all, just look at the randomly generated maps in STO, it's F2P. Why do you think they allow User Created Content in STO? It's because they know and realize their randomly generated maps are horrible, so they let the players make stuff, it usually can't be much worse...but people will and do amaze with their ability to royally muck things up

Something else...the CS map that's been THE top CS map for 13+ years now...it would seem that the competative players don't get so bored so quickly with the maps if the game play on them is good. That map by the way has been copied and used in OTHER games besides CS, it's just that good for game play in a FPS.

We used some randomization scripts back in Tribes 2, community created scripts that allowed us to generate anything and everything on the map, from the terrain to the textures to the objects and bases and everything. We spent many many man hours tweaking that script to make it work properly, ie - it didn't BREAK anything when it was used, because we discovered that our DREAM of randomly generated maps was a nightmare of epic proportions. Bases stuck in mountains or under the terrain totally, chasms so large that you could only get across them with aircraft, various objects blocking doors, inventory units, and so on. We tried, and we had very talented programmers working on the problem, including help from Dynamix's devs. We found great ways to use the randomization scripts under VERY controlled circumstances to ADD variables to the maps, but NEVER were they useful for making the map itself. We had years to play with that, no budget constraints, no deadlines to meet, and we couldn't make it work...just as Cryptic hasn't been able to make it work with STO for anything but the 'exclusive' factor..no one else does this, only STO!..PR fecal matter is all it is..you can paint it up pretty but when you get close enough, you can still smell it, and when you step in it..yeah, there's no doubt what it is.

I've used random generators for 3d work, doing landscapes for artistic use, and they can indeed produce some remarkable things. But you know something...I actually tried using them for BTech related art, and every time I tried to make a battlefield, I ended up spending a lot of time FIXING the random terrain so that it would actually be used for a battlefield.

You should study some military history, specifically battlefields, why they were chosen and why other areas weren't chosen. You'd be rather surprised I think at what you'll learn.

Edited by Kristov Kerensky, 13 April 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[1ShotPaddy]

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Actually, modern militaries DO know where they will be going

Due to the efforts of countless cartographers over thousands of years....and satellites. The worlds of the BTUniverse have only been inhabited for a few hundred years.

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they get the most up to date information about the area as possible and try to get real time imagery as often as they can

Which is what scouts and UAV consumables will achieve in the first few minutes of a round as the two teams draw up a battleplan.

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I'm pretty sure that 1000 years from now the battlefields are NOT covered in a fog of war because..and this is the real kicker here...these battlegrounds have been used many many times over. Tourmaline desert has a description for it on the website, you should read it some time, it's one of the many such battlegrounds in the IS, fought on hundreds of times over the centuries.

Apparently Tourmaline is located in a "strategic corridor", whatever that means. And how many is "many"? Five, ten, fifty battles? Did they all happen on the exact same location on the planet? Is there only one correct location to fight a Mech battle on the entire planet?

It's physically impossible for all c. 3500 worlds of the Inner Sphere to have had "many battles" on, and even less so that they've all taken place on the same few square kilometers that we are treated to repeatedly.

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Terrain glitches run rampant with randomly generated maps, its a fact you keep brushing aside... Just look at STO which DOES use them... They are HORRIBLE!

A bit of evidence for your claim would help your argument. Personal experience with a totally unrelated game isn't evidence though.

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WE are playing a GAME, and due to that simple fact, balance on the map is essential.

Why? Because you say so?

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Something else...the CS map that's been THE top CS map for 13+ years now...it would seem that the competative players don't get so bored so quickly with the maps if the game play on them is good.

Some people take CounterStrike, StarCraft etc. way too seriously. They don't even care what map they play on, being too caught up in the competition. MWO players play for more reasons, such as immersion and role playing. And...

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That map by the way has been copied and used in OTHER games besides CS, it's just that good for game play in a FPS.

MWO isn't an FPS, it's a BattleTech derived 'Mech simulation MMO, and, with the inrtoduction of CW and the battle for the Inner Sphere, it has different requirements than a standard FPS as far as playable battlegrounds are concerned.

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We used some randomization scripts back in Tribes 2, community created scripts that allowed us to generate anything and everything on the map... we discovered that our DREAM of randomly generated maps was a nightmare of epic proportions.

So you're argument here is that because you failed to implement PG maps effectively, in an unrelated game, all other developers should abandon any attempts at implementing PG maps? Weak.

Quote

You should study some military history, specifically battlefields, why they were chosen and why other areas weren't chosen. You'd be rather surprised I think at what you'll learn.

When invading a planet your lucky just getting a DropShip through orbital defences, and then you have to land the craft, obviously in a location not protected by anti-air defences. After that, and only after that, do you get some semblance of choice in engaging your enemy.

Edited by 1ShotPaddy, 13 April 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[Stone Profit]

Appogee, on 12 April 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

*snip*

No, it wouldnt. Random maps are BAD in pvp games. Theyre fine in pve, but not pvp.
JUST SAY NO TO RANDOM MAPS.

Edited by Stone Profit, 13 April 2013 - 02:57 PM.

[l4Dl]

Appogee, on 12 April 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

That's why I'd like the devs to reconsider and use procedurally-generated random maps (''PGRM'') in Community Warfare.

With the current dev team, not possible, its beyond their skill set to program/implement.

I'd love to see this feature, i know its possible and easy to implement (by the right people).
Simply create map blocks, set them to specific groups (eg: hill/flat), apply a random creation technique (using the grouping rules), job done.

[buttmonkey]

you got my vote

[DeadlyNerd]

I hope the OP realizes that FPS maps are 3D, unlike diablo and any RTS maps, which are 2D.
That's 1 dimension, height.
Yeah, the game's 3D, yada yada, well the map isn't. These maps still have plateaus to represent height, making them essentially 2D.

Warframe has a good principle for making random 3D maps, rooms. This would work all well and good except for the fact that MWO has open world where there are no "rooms".

This would be a completely new technology, no one to ask about how it works.
Developing it would require over a year and all PGI resources.
Making and perfecting an algorithm that would generate these open 3D maps would take far longer than just building them by hand.

1 thing is suggesting a change to the game, another is asking for a fairy tale wish.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 13 April 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[l4Dl]

DeadlyNerd, on 13 April 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

This would be a completely new technology, no one to ask about how it works.
Developing it would require over a year and all PGI resources.

Your ******** me right?
Hellgate london, PR map gen.

Its not a Technology, its a method of map creation/programming which gives the result. Its called a "team" effort, very simple to achieve.
Its more simple than the cup of coffee you make in the morning.

Honestly, you clearly know very little about whats involved, yet, your so quick to throw a backsided "its alot of work" post into the mix.
Stop protecting the Devs with non-sense. This process could be easily achieved, easily implemented, a few weeks tops.

[DeadlyNerd]

l4Dl, on 13 April 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

Your ******** me right?
Hellgate london, PR map gen.

Its not a Technology, its a method of map creation/programming which gives the result. Its called a "team" effort, very simple to achieve.
Its more simple than the cup of coffee you make in the morning.

Honestly, you clearly know very little about whats involved, yet, your so quick to throw a backsided "its alot of work" post into the mix.
Stop protecting the Devs with non-sense. This process could be easily achieved, easily implemented, a few weeks tops.

Rooms, you dimwitted ****, rooms. It's still not OPEN.

I'm not protecting the devs, if anything I'm the one usually attacking them with how easy certain things are to implement.
What OP is asking for is impossible with today's way of thinking.
You don't just make a 3x3km map with balanced hills/gullies that's an open 3d world.

Star citizen is the first game that's going to attempt 3D open world map generation, and that's not even going to include terrain that has elevation etc. That generation is going to be based on empty 3d space and randomly placed 3d objects.

Don't even think of bringing minecraft up. 1 heavily explored minecraft map is a hilltop in alpine.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 13 April 2013 - 03:18 PM.

[l4Dl]

DeadlyNerd, on 13 April 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

Star citizen is the first game that's going to attempt 3D open world map generation, and that's not even going to include terrain that has elevation etc. That generation is going to be based on empty 3d space and randomly placed 3d objects.

Don't even think of bringing minecraft up. 1 heavily explored minecraft map is a hilltop in alpine.

Your lack of knowledge is showing.
Played Spore?

DeadlyNerd, on 13 April 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

Rooms, you dimwitted ****, rooms. It's still not OPEN.

Just sit down, think about the current state of the this game:
- Think about what the dev team "CAN" achieve.
- Then you might delay some of those "childish assaults" because you have a better grasp of whats at hand.

Edited by l4Dl, 13 April 2013 - 03:25 PM.

[DeadlyNerd]

l4Dl, on 13 April 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Your lack of knowledge is showing.
Played Spore?

Just sit down, think about the current state of the this game:
- Think about what the dev team "CAN" achieve.
- Then you might delay some of those "childish assaults" because you have a better grasp of whats at hand.

Oh, you mean a SP game where a large map is the size of the base area you need to cap? Wait, no it's not, IT'S SMALLER. Not to mention that terrain had absolutely no effect on how your monster fought the enemy monster.
Don't you think that if open map generation was so easy, that Crytek wouldn't have already randomly generated thousands of maps for Crysis?

Don't try to reason while changing the subject. It's "childish" and proves how much you're "confident" in your claims.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 13 April 2013 - 03:35 PM.

[IamTheEggMan]

+1 for OPs blindingly obvious logic

[OpCentar]

I dream of never playing the same map twice.

It may be fun for someone but give it 24h and the best builds & strategies are already calculated, tested and proven.

That leads to stale gameplay, all the moves are known in advance and the only thing that changes is the sequence.


I don't think pure random maps will happen so best we can hope for is a wide selection of premade maps.